D&D General Transgender Drow are Canon in Forgotten Realms! Woo!

Well, it’s a tangential but related conversation, sure. It’s a perfectly valid thing to be curious about, though.
Agreed. What I mean is that focusing on the canonicity suggests that the officialdom of Greenwood's words are the important part of the story, rather than Greenwood taking a positive stand towards transgenderism. The latter, in my view, is the important part.

I, as much as anyone else, love those little convoluted internet arguments where someone successfully argues that Elvis is still alive in the X-files universe because they share the same fictional cereal brands as Men In Black or some such thing. However, IMO, there's only so much 'there' there to these terms like canon or official (or RAW). YMMV.
Sure. I understand the conversation. :)
Uh, I'm sure you do. I wasn't speaking specifically to you for this part of my post. I suppose I should have put my aside to you at the end to make that clear.
 
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According to the Reddit thread, Ben Riggs' book Slaying the Dragon: A Secret History of Dungeons & Dragons discusses it, but says it's not a formal requirement, but rather a courtesy (I haven't read this book myself but others here may have). Certainly is the generalized belief (c.f. the FR wiki, which didn't make that decision at random) and it's something Ed himself and others have referred to before

Even if it’s unenforceable legally, it’s a bit of fun that is largely harmless and allows a raconteur like Ed Greenwood to continue being a spokesman for the game.
 

Even if it’s unenforceable legally, it’s a bit of fun that is largely harmless and allows a raconteur like Ed Greenwood to continue being a spokesman for the game.
Yeah and lets be real - he's doing a better job in many ways than WotC would dare to do with stuff like this!

On this particular one it's fascinating because he absolutely threaded a needle in which he made both the "bad Drow" and "good Drow" allow for this, for very different reasons, without taking away from or genericising either group. It's arguably a tiny bit problematic but in a way that I think a lot of people (including, importantly, I think, most trans D&D players) see as giving it character and binding it to the FR specifics rather than making it objectionable (though I am obviously open to suggestions to the contrary from the relevant parties).

(Also it's kind of iconic that he's throwing shade on TERFs with the suspicion comment, love it)
 

Haven't there been trans drow in published adventures since Waterdeep: Dragon Heist?

In my sigil campaign I run I've got a prominent drow athar (read: atheist) cleric NPC who's also agender; it believes that Lolth actually promotes femdom-style gender essentialism and so the real way to rebel against Lolth is to reject the concept of gender entirely.
 

I'd want to see a cite for that, as it sounds unlikely. Also 'canon' is not a legal concept; I'm not even sure how it could be in a contract.
The old citations provided by Staffan and Ruin Explorer are what I'm basing my understanding on. It does mean that anything Wizards officially publishes automatically supersedes what Ed writes, so his 'canonicity' is more of a figurehead/honorary thing since they can overrule him. But it IS nice that he can chime in on realms-lore issues with at least some official weight.

But you are right that canon is a super nebulous concept, especially in famous fan arguments over canon like Herbert / Dune, Toriyama / Dragonball, or Star Wars Disney / Legacy.
 

Even completely ignoring the fact that trans people exist in the real world, I've never really understood how anybody could think that it couldn't happen in a fantasy world with abundant forms of transformation magic on top of all of the mundane methods. Like in The Witcher, almost every mage is their ideal form of beauty, because if you possessed the ability to remake yourself into your perfect self image, why wouldn't you? Cis or trans, almost anybody with easy access to gender affirming care tends to indulge.

And as some of my friends have showcased, sometimes you need gender affirming care even when it's really, really hard to indulge.

But regardless, it's always nice to see minority representation that's not cloaked in metaphor or blink-and-you'll-miss-it writing.
 

Even completely ignoring the fact that trans people exist in the real world, I've never really understood how anybody could think that it couldn't happen in a fantasy world with abundant forms of transformation magic on top of all of the mundane methods. Like in The Witcher, almost every mage is their ideal form of beauty, because if you possessed the ability to remake yourself into your perfect self image, why wouldn't you? Cis or trans, almost anybody with easy access to gender affirming care tends to indulge.

And as some of my friends have showcased, sometimes you need gender affirming care even when it's really, really hard to indulge.

But regardless, it's always nice to see minority representation that's not cloaked in metaphor or blink-and-you'll-miss-it writing.
Trans people exist in the real world, but I think our contemporary conception of "gender" and thus "transgender" doesn't necessarily exist in fantasy worlds. It's kind of a bugbear of mine when it comes to fantasy, where they just assume that because the society has both men and women it also must have developed the works of Judith Butler at some point.


Like, take the Thai "kathoey" or "ladyboy". It's a real, extant gender expression that is either outside of or between the cisgender identity as it is known in both western and Thai culture... but "kathoey" do not exist in American culture, and in an American context they would be pigeonholed not into "cisman" or "ciswoman", but "transwoman" or "nonbinary", which do not exactly encapsulate the specific cultural experience of that particular gender.

I think it's right to assume that non-binary genders exist in all cultures, and that it is possible to move between one or more of those genders, but I don't think calling these genders (or characters with these gender expressions) "transwomen" or "transmen" (with all the cultural baggage they entail) is necessarily appropriate, unless the society in question is specifically based on that of the 21st century west.

Fantasy writers should be coming up with new genders just as readily as they come up with new races and new languages. It's kind of like how you can have a dark-skinned character with tightly coiled hair and call them "black", lowercase, but not "Black", uppercase, unless that ethnic group was specifically subjected to similar historical forces that forged "Blackness" in reality (IE, triangular trade, mass slavery, colonialism, etc) they're about as "Black" as they are "Indonesian" or "Catalan."
 
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The Realms have always had a nonbinary/gender fluid deity, Corellon Larethian, as the “Ruler of All Elves.” That’s Corellon’s title in the 1989 first Forgotten Realms box, wherein most deities are titled either “God of…” or “Goddess of….” whatever.

Larethian was of course first described thus in 1980’s Deities and Demigods: “Corellon is alternately male and female, both or neither.”
 

Trans people exist in the real world, but I think our contemporary conception of "gender" and thus "transgender" doesn't necessarily exist in fantasy worlds. It's kind of a bugbear of mine when it comes to fantasy, where they just assume that because the society has both men and women it also must have developed the works of Judith Butler at some point.
This is an interesting thought experiment but utterly pointless.

Gender exists in D&D worlds in the exact same way every other word we use in D&D games does. If a player plays a transgender character, every term they use to describe it exists in that setting along with that character.

We don't have a separate idea of what gender is as a concept just because we're playing D&D in the same way we don't have a different conception of what "Gay" means or "Wife" or "Trade Route".

All of these things are specific terms which bear cultural weight to us that wouldn't to various peoples in various times. And because we are imagining them into the game world, they exist in the gameworld with those cultural expectations.

Judith Butler doesn't have to exist for that to be a thing. Just like a complex legal system around various degrees of murder or sexual assault don't have to be written for a campaign setting for us as players to call those things immoral or illegal and present consequences for those actions.

We impose our modern ideas upon the game world in a million minor ways. Why does this one have to be special?
Like, take the Thai "kathoey" or "ladyboy". It's a real, extant gender expression that is either outside of or between the cisgender identity as it is known in both western and Thai culture... but "kathoey" do not exist in American culture, and in an American context they would be pigeonholed not into "cisman" or "ciswoman", but "transwoman" or "nonbinary", which do not exactly encapsulate the specific cultural experience of that particular gender.
Okay. So. If you're ready to develop an entire concept of Gender for every culture in a campaign setting that doesn't align with the real world conception of it I might be willing to run with it for a game or two. Maybe more if the setting is captivating.

But the setting where that is a thing doesn't exist. And thus we impose our personal perceptions.
I think it's right to assume that non-binary genders exist in all cultures, and that it is possible to move between one or more of those genders, but I don't think calling these genders (or characters with these gender expressions) "transwomen" or "transmen" (with all the cultural baggage they entail) is necessarily appropriate, unless the society in question is specifically based on that of the 21st century west.
When you develop period and setting-specific language that encapsulates the idea based on the in-game cultures and then convince the other people at the table to use that language and understand it... Bully for you!

Until then, people are just going to use the language they have and understand in order to communicate ideas to the other people around the table. Because that's all that really matters when we're using terms like this: The ability to communicate concepts to each other.

Alternatively: You could pretend that while your players are saying "My character, Eliza, is Trans" that they're actually speaking elven and saying "My character's identity has passed with the phases of the last moon and is now known to all the trees of Lothlorien as Eliza, daughter of the changing waters" in the elven tongue or some such.
Fantasy writers should be coming up with new genders just as readily as they come up with new races and new languages. It's kind of like how you can have a dark-skinned character with tightly coiled hair and call them "black", lowercase, but not "Black", uppercase, unless that ethnic group was specifically subjected to similar historical forces that forged "Blackness" in reality (IE, triangular trade, mass slavery, colonialism, etc) they're about as "Black" as they are "Indonesian" or "Catalan."
It's nice in theory... but races have mechanical aspects which is why people invent new ones at a vastly accelerated rate, now, than they ever did before.

Gender probably shouldn't have comparable mechanical aspects. Which makes it way less 'Interesting' for game designers to fiddle with. Meanwhile campaign setting writers are more interested in writing about threats, locations, individuals, languages, etc. And our modern language covers things like gender and transitioning so it's rarely mentioned aside from "This is a thing that sometimes happens" or "NO TRANS RACES ALLOWED" if you're a rampaging douchenozzle setting writer...

Give it time. Language changes. While Trans and Transgender are all the rage, now, due to the urge to medicalize people like us, language will shift to be something you might find more palatable in a fantasy setting.
 

Trans people exist in the real world, but I think our contemporary conception of "gender" and thus "transgender" doesn't necessarily exist in fantasy worlds. It's kind of a bugbear of mine when it comes to fantasy, where they just assume that because the society has both men and women it also must have developed the works of Judith Butler at some point.


Like, take the Thai "kathoey" or "ladyboy". It's a real, extant gender expression that is either outside of or between the cisgender identity as it is known in both western and Thai culture... but "kathoey" do not exist in American culture, and in an American context they would be pigeonholed not into "cisman" or "ciswoman", but "transwoman" or "nonbinary", which do not exactly encapsulate the specific cultural experience of that particular gender.

I think it's right to assume that non-binary genders exist in all cultures, and that it is possible to move between one or more of those genders, but I don't think calling these genders (or characters with these gender expressions) "transwomen" or "transmen" (with all the cultural baggage they entail) is necessarily appropriate, unless the society in question is specifically based on that of the 21st century west.

Fantasy writers should be coming up with new genders just as readily as they come up with new races and new languages. It's kind of like how you can have a dark-skinned character with tightly coiled hair and call them "black", lowercase, but not "Black", uppercase, unless that ethnic group was specifically subjected to similar historical forces that forged "Blackness" in reality (IE, triangular trade, mass slavery, colonialism, etc) they're about as "Black" as they are "Indonesian" or "Catalan."
The thing about this is that no one is opposed to fantasy calling characters "man" or "woman", "male" or "female". No one cares if fantasy that's set in another world completely different to ours uses the same language we do.

Except for people who want to take offense at the existence of queer people in a setting. Then etymology, word origins, anachronism, etc. suddenly start to matter. You can call a male character a "man", but calling a trans character "trans"? Utterly unacceptable! Somehow.

Because at the root of it, it boils down to people wanting an excuse to be offended at the existence of queer characters in fiction.

And the excuse of saying that non-binary or trans characters in fantasy fiction should use made-up monikers for such? Along with placing an expectation on queer characters/topics that doesn't exist for anything else, what it is also is that having a story in which a queer character is of some non-Earth culture who calls being queer by some fantasy lingo lets people pretend that queer people are a product of fantasy fiction. It's an alien concept of these elves or orcs, and not something normal or natural for real-life humans.
 

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