D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[The Firebird]

There very few people who deliberately desire to exclude. There are a lot more people who who inadvertently create barriers, buy insisting on clinging on to things that don't wash with incoming players. But the joke was not aimed at people who like THAC0, the joke was aimed at gatekeepers (intentional or not).

If we decouple gatekeeping from the desire to exclude it loses its value as a term. For one, ascending AC is a barrier to people who find Thaco more intuitive, hence gatekeeping. Roll over and roll under systems can both be barriers for different audiences; gatekeeping. The use of ability scores from 3-18 adds complexity without real benefit in 5e; gatekeeping. Overly complex word choices for key mechanics, like "charisma"? Gatekeeping.

To me gatekeeping implies intentionality. And sometimes people do raise barriers for no other reason than to exclude. E.g. you aren't a true star wars fan if you don't know what planet Nien Nunb is from. It's good to have a term for this.

Thaco isn't this.

 

[payn]

If we decouple gatekeeping from the desire to exclude it loses its value as a term. For one, ascending AC is a barrier to people who find Thaco more intuitive, hence gatekeeping. Roll over and roll under systems can both be barriers for different audiences; gatekeeping. The use of ability scores from 3-18 adds complexity without real benefit in 5e; gatekeeping. Overly complex word choices for key mechanics, like "charisma"? Gatekeeping.

To me gatekeeping implies intentionality. And sometimes people do raise barriers for no other reason than to exclude. E.g. you aren't a true star wars fan if you don't know what planet Nien Nunb is from. It's good to have a term for this.

Thaco isn't this.

Yes, its intentional. Folks saying they like/prefer THAC0 no biggie. Folks saying THAC0 is superior becasue smarter people understand it and the game ought to be for smarter people, dats gatekeeping.

 

[Imaro]

If we decouple gatekeeping from the desire to exclude it loses its value as a term. For one, ascending AC is a barrier to people who find Thaco more intuitive, hence gatekeeping. Roll over and roll under systems can both be barriers for different audiences; gatekeeping. The use of ability scores from 3-18 adds complexity without real benefit in 5e; gatekeeping. Overly complex word choices for key mechanics, like "charisma"? Gatekeeping.

To me gatekeeping implies intentionality. And sometimes people do raise barriers for no other reason than to exclude. E.g. you aren't a true star wars fan if you don't know what planet Nien Nunb is from. It's good to have a term for this.

Thaco isn't this.

Thac0 by itself probably isn't but it's rarely if ever a question of a single mechanic being the lone point of contention around how the game should be... its Thac0, it's deterministic alignment, it's the unwillingness to admit or change old stereotypes, it's preferring the old artwork while ignoring it's lack of representing the myriad of types of players who now play D&D... and, intentional or not, whether you prefer these things or not... its creating barriers to others playing the game and is a form of gatekeeping. Your intention doesn't change the effect.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

All the boobies in the 1st edition artwork were not intended to make women feel unwelcome. Nevertheless, that was the effect.

Gatekeeping can be, and usually is, unintentional. Most people don’t deliberately set out to be horrible.

 

[payn]

Thac0 by itself probably isn't but it's rarely if ever a question of a single mechanic being the lone point of contention around how the game should be... its Thac0, it's deterministic alignment, it's the unwillingness to admit or change old stereotypes, it's preferring the old artwork while ignoring it's lack of representing the myriad of types of players who now play D&D... and, intentional or not, whether you prefer these things or not... its creating barriers to others playing the game and is a form of gatekeeping. Your intention doesn't change the effect.

I'll say preferring the old art style is different than saying only the old art should exist. Alignment still exists, al beit, mechanically removed, so its not much of a barrier. Things can evolve and work side by side of other things. Folks that think that way should be encouraged becasue they want D&D to keep its traditions and expand. Lumping all folks that like something together, regardless of reason, is the other side of the coin here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Thac0 by itself probably isn't but it's rarely if ever a question of a single mechanic being the lone point of contention around how the game should be... its Thac0, it's deterministic alignment, it's the unwillingness to admit or change old stereotypes, it's preferring the old artwork while ignoring it's lack of representing the myriad of types of players who now play D&D... and, intentional or not, whether you prefer these things or not... its creating barriers to others playing the game and is a form of gatekeeping. Your intention doesn't change the effect.

And since gatekeeping is regularly seen as an unalloyed evil in modern parlance, the above argument doesn't speak well for the people who like any of those things. That doesn't seem conducive to good conversation.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And since gatekeeping is regularly seen as an unalloyed evil in modern parlance, the above argument doesn't speak well for the people who like any of those things. That doesn't seem conducive to good conversation.

It's not about liking things. It's about trying to impose them on others, even if you think it's for the greater good.

Most evil things are done "for the greater good". Very few people get out of bed and decide "I'm going to be evil today".

 

[Imaro]

I'll say preferring the old art style is different than saying only the old art should exist. Alignment still exists, al beit, mechanically removed, so its not much of a barrier. Things can evolve and work side by side of other things. Folks that think that way should be encouraged becasue they want D&D to keep its traditions and expand. Lumping all folks that like something together, regardless of reason, is the other side of the coin here.

Again... IMO... your reason doesn't matter if the effect is to setup barriers for gatekeeping.

Let's try a more extreme example... would you be ok with someone who preferred racially segregated pools because... it made their pool less crowded? Their intent isn't to setup a discriminatory system that causes division and gatekeeps... but their preference still enables and promotes that effect.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

its not much of a barrier

During the BG3 early access period there was a lot of gatekeeping language used on the forums with regard to how Larian was handling alignment.

 

[payn]

Again... IMO... your reason doesn't matter if the effect is to setup barriers for gatekeeping.

ADEU, tactical combat, lack of open multiclassing, were all barriers to 4E for me. Was that gatekeeping? I dont think so, but it had the effect!