D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[ezo]

Middle class family, two parents, decent suburb probably opportunity to go to college?

Hmm... judgy much??? Not a good look.

I'm seeing it now in 2025. Not everyone's good at math or reading dice. Or they've been out of school for 20+ years.

Then practicing subtraction as well as addition might be a good idea?

Two smartest players I've had recently. Ducks to water they're both scientists. Ones something brain related she's doing a masters. Other one she did genetics. Both beyond my pay grade.

One guy struggles adding up the dice on say fireball. By struggle I mean it takes him longer I can do it with a glance other's group dice buckets in groups of ten. Alot of its just practice. I suck at algebra I can easy do AD&D xp tables and add up buckets of dice.

Which is sad, frankly, but yeah practice makes perfect so let them practice and move on, I guess.

Perhaps if they had dealt with descending AC they would be better now?

 

[AlViking]

I don't know. I never met any kid in the 80's or adult in the 90's who didn't play AD&D because they couldn't handle the math of Descending AC. I'm sure they are out there, to be clear, but if more people can benefit from a bit harder system math-wise even if a couple people can't hack it, I'm okay with that.

Call it whatever you like. Frankly, unless it is someone I personally know, I don't really care. And if it was someone I knew, I would help them learn to master it so it wouldn't be a problem. I don't believe in designing down to the lowest common denominator when those people could be raised up instead of left behind.

As for "gatekeeping", naughty word that it is around here, it never mattered to me in the slightest. People can gatekeep or not, whatever.

I think that statement should really be " never met any kid in the 80's or adult in the 90's who admitted they didn't play AD&D because they couldn't handle the math of Descending AC." After all you consider it so easy someone must be stupid not to utilize it like you. People rarely admit to things that will make others think they're dumb. I knew people who who hated it, struggled with it, and put up with it because they had no choice.

 

[ezo]

I think that statement should really be " never met any kid in the 80's or adult in the 90's who admitted they didn't play AD&D because they couldn't handle the math of Descending AC." After all you consider it so easy someone must be stupid not to utilize it like you. People rarely admit to things that will make others think they're dumb. I knew people who who hated it, struggled with it, and put up with it because they had no choice.

I take people at face value. But yes, I already stipulated that here:

Maybe... but I doubt it. Or kids/adults might have given me a different excuse, but 90% of the people (whatever age) who tried it played for at least a good while; and none of them ever said they didn't want to stay because of the math with THAC0. Maybe they were too embarassed about it? I don't know. I can only accept them at face value and believe in their reasons (which most of the time was scheduling, even as kids, with sports, clubs, etc.).

 

[Bedrockgames]

One of the reasons I went with a dice pool system for my games it sidesteps the math for the most part. So I see that value. But math isn't a bad thing in a system. It is just a design choice like any other. The math in THAC0 generally works pretty well (at least for my taste)

 

[James Gasik]

Well, ascending AC is easier. The trouble was it came with additions to the system that complicated things in 3e. 1) It came with open-ended modifiers and values - there was no upper limit to AC, nor to stats. That bloated the values that needed to be added. 2) It also came with varying base attack bonuses used to throttle how much multiple attacks affected expected damage instead of just managing attack rates with oddball attack rates like 3/2 - so the attack value that needed to be added was changing mid attack routine.

4e fixed the issue of varying attack bonuses by manipulating expected damage other ways by defining the damage done with powers, but left the numeric bloat in system.

5e largely fixed the numeric bloat through bounded accuracy and limitations on practical AC values. So I'd argue that the system is finally firing on all cylinders with respect to ascending ACs and managing attack rolls.

There was no lower limit for descending AC either- oh sure, AC -10 was the limit for players, but some monsters could go lower, so it wasn't an absolute limit.

 

[Eric V]

I don't know. I never met any kid in the 80's or adult in the 90's who didn't play AD&D because they couldn't handle the math of Descending AC. I'm sure they are out there, to be clear, but if more people can benefit from a bit harder system math-wise even if a couple people can't hack it, I'm okay with that.

Call it whatever you like. Frankly, unless it is someone I personally know, I don't really care. And if it was someone I knew, I would help them learn to master it so it wouldn't be a problem. I don't believe in designing down to the lowest common denominator when those people could be raised up instead of left behind.

As for "gatekeeping", naughty word that it is around here, it never mattered to me in the slightest. People can gatekeep or not, whatever.

Sorry, I am not understanding you here...what benefit are you talking about?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sorry, I am not understanding you here...what benefit are you talking about?

I presume as an educational experience?

 

[Zardnaar]

Hmm... judgy much??? Not a good look.


Then practicing subtraction as well as addition might be a good idea?


Which is sad, frankly, but yeah practice makes perfect so let them practice and move on, I guess.

Perhaps if they had dealt with descending AC they would be better now?

Not judging but did you go to university? Decent parents taught you basic math?

I've been to university graduated. Here its 25% not sure about your country. Graduated school of hard knocks didn't graduate high school.

Main point is I'm goid at D&D math. If you don't play D&D regularly, haven't used math much since high school it's harder.
It's also harder if you never had those opportunities to begin with or weren't good at it to begin with.

Not everyone's good at math doesn't mean they're stupid. Some people may be the sharpest but still want to play D&D. Some really smart math genius lack social skills or the common sense to boil water.

I'm more concerned about social issues than a players math ability in any event. That involves concepts like "soap" as well. I can swing both ways on THAC0 myself.

 

[ezo]

There was no lower limit for descending AC either- oh sure, AC -10 was the limit for players, but some monsters could go lower, so it wasn't an absolute limit.

I don't recall any creature having an AC below -10, but could easily be wrong. As I don't have my 2E books anymore, I can't verify it.

As for PCs, they could get below -10. I don't recall that being a limit for players... can you cite one??

Sorry, I am not understanding you here...what benefit are you talking about?

Getting better at maths.

I presume as an educational experience?

Yep.

Not judging

Sounded like it...

did you go to university? Decent parents taught you basic math?

Yes. Even taught at university.

Parents didn't help... I didn't need it. I was tutoring my parents' friend in her college math class (for nursing school) when I was in 8th grade.

Main point is I'm goid at D&D math. If you don't play D&D regularly, haven't used math much since high school it's harder.

15 - 4 = 11 is hard??? If it is I think we need to examine what we do with our spare time. I understand more issues with learning, confusing numbers, etc. due to a condition perhaps, but otherwise this is we're talking about stuff most kids learn around age 10-12 (depending on where you live, etc.).

It's also harder if you never had those opportunities to begin with or weren't good at it to begin with.

We're talking basic arithmetic, not rocket science. Honestly, most of the number in the realm we're discussing you can use your fingers and just count.

Not everyone's good at math doesn't mean they're stupid. Some people may be the sharpest but still want to play D&D.

Oh, certainly not, but again we're not talking hard maths here. IME people struggled more with ascending AC in 3E and other d20 systems due to all the modifiers and numbers involved and the scale of adding them then ever had issue with subtraction and descending AC.

Some really smart math genius lack social skills or the common sense to boil water.

Lacking social skills is one thing, but doesn't affect the use of THAC0 or Descending AC. Boiling water... well at least there's a number in there somewhere.

I'm more concerned about social issues than a players math ability in any event. That involves concepts like "soap" as well. I can swing both ways on THAC0 myself.

I don't care much about social issues, however, the "soap" issue is one box I'll stand on and insist on for people with whom I play.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't recall any creature having an AC below -10, but could easily be wrong. As I don't have my 2E books anymore, I can't verify it.

As for PCs, they could get below -10. I don't recall that being a limit for players... can you cite one??


Getting better at maths.


Yep.


Sounded like it...


Yes. Even taught at university.

Parents didn't help... I didn't need it. I was tutoring my parents' friend in her college math class (for nursing school) when I was in 8th grade.


15 - 4 = 11 is hard??? If it is I think we need to examine what we do with our spare time. I understand more issues with learning, confusing numbers, etc. due to a condition perhaps, but otherwise this is we're talking about stuff most kids learn around age 10-12 (depending on where you live, etc.).


We're talking basic arithmetic, not rocket science. Honestly, most of the number in the realm we're discussing you can use your fingers and just count.


Oh, certainly not, but again we're not talking hard maths here. IME people struggled more with ascending AC in 3E and other d20 systems due to all the modifiers and numbers involved and the scale of adding them then ever had issue with subtraction and descending AC.


Lacking social skills is one thing, but doesn't affect the use of THAC0 or Descending AC. Boiling water... well at least there's a number in there somewhere.


I don't care much about social issues, however, the "soap" issue is one box I'll stand on and insist on for people with whom I play.

You're approaching it from your PoV. Most people don't go to university we did.

Lots of kids are also flunking school. Often parents are crap or don't know themselves. THAC0s harder than counting fingers.

My school males. Drop out rate was around 70%, more than one on 10 were abused it's close to 25%. And that's just the ones I know of.

One family 3 generations of abuse. Generation 4 broke the cycle but still had to deal with it. Generation 5 one just dropped out of school Age 16 this year. Same reason as Generation 4 (not my kid to be clear).

One of my players lives in rough neighborhood. Another her parents can afford to send her to international university.

What's easy for you isn't universal is main point. What's easy for you probably had something to do with the environment you were raised in.