GM fiat - an illustration

[Crimson Longinus]

I can't comment on the first edition, but this isn't correct for TB2e.

You have been asked to cite the relevant rules several times; you haven't.
What is the point of this? What is the point of bringing up a game mechanic as an example in the first post, but actually not provide the rule and keep people guessing for 258 pages and admonishing them for guessing things wrong? It seems to me that you are not interested in honest and open discussion about the topic.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Crimson Longinus @Bedrockgames @robertsconley @Faolyn

You all have seen what’s been said about Torchbearer 2e in this thread and I think most all of us have little to no experience with that game.

Is it just me or is the impression that’s been given up till now that the camp roll in TB2e doesn’t tell the GM what specific monster comes to camp?

Like I’m not actually misunderstanding stuff this badly, right?

 

[Bedrockgames]

@Crimson Longinus @Bedrockgames @robertsconley @Faolyn

You all have seen what’s been said about Torchbearer 2e in this thread and I think most all of us have little to no experience with that game.

Is it just me or is the impression that’s been given up till now that the camp roll in TB2e doesn’t tell the GM what specific monster comes to camp?

Like I’m not actually misunderstanding stuff this badly, right?

I haven't followed a lot of the subsequent torchbearer conversation but I am very unclear on how many of the specific rules work overall in this conversation. I think quoting rules passages would be helpful, because many times I have seen examples but it isnt always clear what the rules themselves are

 

[FrogReaver]

@zakael19

We were discussing Blades in the Dark earlier but I think this thread has moved on. If you would like to open a blades in the dark thread where I can bring up a scenario, ask questions on whether it follows the rules and if applicable ask about rules that seem to suggest otherwise I’d be interested.

 

[hawkeyefan]

@hawkeyefan

In case it's of interest, I'm attaching/uploading some photographs of old timeline and event notes that I made and (sometimes/partially) used when GMing a "living world"-type Rolemaster campaign in the 90s. I pulled out my box of old notes, ferreted through the manila folders, and took photos of a few representative examples.

You will see that they are not especially sophisticated in the way they are organised or presented - all are handwritten, and some would have been written by me sitting in carrels in the university library between lectures. They are all 30 to 35 years old, so my memory now for the meaning of any details/references/allusions is pretty hazy. Some of them I generated using random event tables (I had tables from the original AD&D OA, and also various Rolemaster books, and may be other places too); others I planned out based on "logical" extrapolation from some combination of setting details and events that had occurred, or at least been narrated, in play.

My experience with this sort of game was very similar to what @AbdulAlhazred has described - keeping track of all the moving parts, and integrating them into play, is a lot of work and to me it was not clear what the payoff was. I was doing this because RPG manuals that I'd read told me it was the "right" way to GM a campaign, but I became increasingly doubtful of the utility.

I'll call out two of the pages for particular comment:

The one written in red pen is an attempt to plan out the capacity of NPCs to perform a "scry and fry"-style raid on the PCs, based on GM decision-making (informed by setting details and implicit setting conventions) as to the details of those NPCs. My recollection is that it left something of a sour taste in the players' mouths.

The one in purple pen is the most recent in time (probably 1995 or thereabouts, rather than 1991 or thereabouts for the blue pen ones). It may not be very legible, but if you can read it, you'll see that it is getting closer to a "fronts" style account of motivations and possible happenings that would flow from those. My own approach to prep and to GMing continued more in that direction as I continued to GM RM for another 13-odd years.

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Those are great! Reminds me of stuff I had from that era, too! I was a lifeguard at a very not-busy indoor pool and I would spend my time drafting up timelines like these and other ideas for my campaign. For me, it was 2nd edition AD&D.

 

[Bedrockgames]

For large scale world events I usually use tables (typically with pretty low probably of major changes). And I might do these in advance but just put a small note on my calendar. For smaller scale (like things happening immediately around the players, I just update based on what folks are trying to do: i.e. Okay what is Dancing Corpse Queen doing this week after getting trounced by the party).

 

[Manbearcat]

The player's job in TB is to manage all of their resources (food, light, gear, tools, supplies, checks, nature, traits, fate, persona, wises, spells, invocations, treasure, resources), endure the relentless Grind, fight for what and for whom they believe (belief, creed, goal, instinct, mentor, friend, parents, hometown), against their enemy and the new ones they accumulate along the way, and fill their bags with loot and treasure so they might prosper and transform into rightful heroes.

The GM's job is to generate a map and adventures which are intensely demanding and test all of this stuff via indexing the components above in their obstacle & Twist generation as they execute the (procedurally dense) structured crucible of play (Town phase, Adventure phase, Camp phase). The players aspire for their PCs to be heroes. You put relevant stuff in their way. We'll see if their meek light becomes a burning beacon, is snuffed, or gutters quietly into darkness in one hidey hole or another.

When it comes to test failures, about half of them should be Success + Condition and the other half should be Twist (a new obstacle that intercedes between the players and the adventure goal); so roughly (but not necessarily) woven back-and-forth.

The PC Magician Yfrette (level 6) has had her Friend Gornia captured by one of her Enemies. The Witch Gretta is intent upon seducing or compelling the aspiring Magician into her growing coven. We're in a middle-sized Adventure (10 to 12 obstacles) into Bleakwood where the witch makes home. They're on obstacle 6 or 7 and the Grind and Success + Conditions and Compromises from Conflicts and Gear Twists have weighed the group down with Conditions that need recovered and armor that needs repaired and spells that need memorized.

They've bypassed Typical and Unsafe locations for Camp because they didn't need to at that point. We're in a Dangerous location (adjacent to a stream and small waterfall, on the edge of a precipice we're about to downclimb, under the boughs of Bleakwood Oaks which are known to harbor infamous Bleakwood Wasp Nests). Given that they're in Turn 2 (out of 4) of The Grind, they decide that their Ranger will Survey (Survivalist Test w/ Make Camp Factors) rather than just Plop Down Where They Are; the Grind resets after Camp phase so this is typical tactical play. They already have water as an amenity, so the Ranger is looking for shelter and concealment; Ob4 test (Wilderness + Small Group + Shelter + Concealment). The Ranger has the Survivalist chops and musters Persona for Nature as well as getting Help (Peasant) from the 3rd PC.

Success. The Ranger marks 1 success in Survivalist towards an advance and they have a sheltered camp with water and concealment (as well as a Ranger to boot).

They could really use a good Camp Events roll, so Yfrette decides to deploy Aetherial Premonition (Ob3). It is Free so it isn't against the Grind (after the Ranger's Survey putting us to 3/4, an actual test would trigger the Grind). Yfrette is Cunning. This works out in her favor all the time, but sometimes her arrogance can get the better of her...exactly like this situation, daring to cast a spell within a magical forest against a powerful magical foe. Yfrette's player decides to use her 1/session Use Trait Against Yourself to take -1d to her Arcanist test for AP so she can earn 1 check (resource used to fuel Camp phase) to stack with her existing 1 check as she needs to memorize spells as well as hopefully recover from Angry (no Wises or Traits used beneficially). She has a mega-Arcanist Skill and she doesn't want to spend any Persona and the Ranger has an applicable Wise that can help (I Am Wise grants +1d help and insulates you from Conditions on a failure which leads to Success w/ Condition).

Unfortunately, she only gets 2 successes. She has an applicable Wise, so she spends 1 x Fate (Deeper Understanding) to reroll 1 of her failures. Doesn't hit the last success.

She marks 1 failure for Arcanist.

Now, I have to decide Success w/ Condition (SwC) or Twist (T). If I just used SwC on the last failed test, I'm apt to go with T. If I haven't deployed a T in 2 x failed tests in a row, I'm pretty much 100 % going with T. Let us say it is the latter and I'm going with a Twist. What kind of Twist? There are plenty of default Magic and Gear Twists in the book for this kind of stuff. My brain would be thinking:

* Your silver bell magical focus breaks, protecting you from terrible arcane backlash due to a magical surge. Loremaster vs magical phenomena (Ob3) against the Grind or spend a check in camp to repair it.

* The spell begins to spiral out of control, instead of alerting you to presence, it reverses, giving premonition to a nearby Bleakwood Wasp Swarm. You can spend 2 of your 3 magical supplies to shut down the spell, preventing an Arcanist vs test with them to drive them off, as well as triggering that last tick for the Grind...or everyone can jump in and engage with a Drive Off conflict vs Bleakwood Wasp Swarm (no turn cost) and possibly gain the spoils of victory (or the sting(!) of defeat)!

* The spell amplifies incredibly powerfully. You get what you want (AP works), but your cunning has cost you both increased danger and an opportunity. Your premonition opens up beyond the immediate. You're suddenly remote viewing Gretta's abode where Gornia is captive. Gretta's ensorcelling seduction is working...Gornia is breaking and will soon be her thrall. You can Help Gornia from afar (see above level 6 Magician ability) in a Spiritual conflict (we'll all it Enchanting...kind of a magical Trick conflict using Arcanist and Persuasion). However, if you lose, I'm taking your friend Gornia as a thrall in your final conflict with your enemy Gretta. If you want her back, you'll have to engage in a side-conflict to Adjure Gretta's enchantment while your allies confront the witch physically. Minor Compromise is going to be you take Exhausted. Major...the magical intercession cuts free a part of your soul. Lose one wise, trait or Nature descriptor. If you win and force a Minor Compromise upon Gretta, you can have Gornia as Help for the final conflict...Major compromise and one of her primary magical Weapons fails dramatically, and cannot be equipped in the final conflict.

Or you can just meekly close out the remote connection and leave your Friend to become Gretta's thrall...hopefully breaking the enchantment later without either Gretta killing Gornia or you being forced to (or her slaying you)!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

On the camp roll from TB and wandering monster checks in D&D.

In a D&D wandering monster check the roll determines 1 thing, which if any monsters the PCs encounter. (This can also be more generalized to a random event table.)

Before the fiction of exactly which monster at the PCs location is generated the GM has pre generated a list of possible monsters that could be present at this location. Then after the random monster check the GM then extrapolates further details about the monsters from the setting, the genre, his notes, etc.

This appears different than the TB camp roll (someone correct me if I’m wrong). The TB camp roll doesn’t determine what specific monster comes to camp, this is dm decision. Instead the camp roll determines whether something threatens the PCs in camp and how dangerous it is. Then based on those constraints and possibly the fictional plausibility the GM in TB decides what actual monster is present and its behavior/motivations etc.

In terms of fiat, it looks to me like the d&d dm has a clear process established before play. That process can answer the questions of which monsters and their particular behaviors so that how they would interact with the alarm spell is then extrapolated (or if any aspect is uncertain a roll can be employed to lock that down).

In TB, the specific monster is left for the dm to decide. Because of that TB could not have a spell that worked just like the d&d alarm spell without it relying completely on DM fiat in TB. But just because it would rely on dm fiat to employ such a spell in TB doesn’t mean it relies on DM fiat in d&d to do so.

The generating of a monster by authoring an encounter table, and subsequently rolling on it, is no less a process of GM decision-making than the TB case, except maybe you did it last Tuesday. Granted D&D has, often, some random generation, but that still is 'randomly choose one of the things I decided on', which is pretty thin. I think it mostly serves to disclaim responsibility, and it is fun! I would point out that a GM in D&D is perfectly within their rights to eschew any random roll at all. A TB GM is also perfectly within their rights to create a random encounter table! The nature of play will not in either of those cases change drastically, and in all of the above cases the GM is ultimately the source of the decision "what is the threat?"

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@Crimson Longinus @Bedrockgames @robertsconley @Faolyn

You all have seen what’s been said about Torchbearer 2e in this thread and I think most all of us have little to no experience with that game.

Is it just me or is the impression that’s been given up till now that the camp roll in TB2e doesn’t tell the GM what specific monster comes to camp?

Like I’m not actually misunderstanding stuff this badly, right?

It has been a while since I read/played TB2e, so I won't swear I am remembering correctly, but AFAIK the players declare camp, and they make a camp roll. If that roll fails, then mechanically camp phase doesn't happen. In our play that was sometimes described as the conditions being so hostile (weather, etc.) that we could get no benefit and suffered additional conditions. Other times it was something else, like once a character was lured off into the woods by a dryad and we all had to go rush off and save him. Once we saved him, then we tried to camp again, but our camp was blown away by wind and rain.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Those are great! Reminds me of stuff I had from that era, too! I was a lifeguard at a very not-busy indoor pool and I would spend my time drafting up timelines like these and other ideas for my campaign. For me, it was 2nd edition AD&D.

Yeah, I just cracked my old 'Kinergh Campaign' notebook, a whole 3-ring binder filled with notes and whatnot. It is pretty 'front-like' in structure, although all the different threats kind of align to one overarching plot/timeline. As we played it looks like I basically collapsed a lot of it down to "OK, the players did something, my move is 'The Green Adept invades the North!' You see lots of refugees fleeing south on the road from Ladd." Had I ever systematized things it would have been basically a lot like Baker's Fronts I guess.