An examination of player agency

[innerdude]

Then you just end up in a game with some really silly and stupid results that don't make sense within the context of the campaign.

Player: I open up a rift in space and time, exposing Capone's men to the face melting presence of the Nuclear Chaos, Azathoth!
GM: Uh, we're not playing Call of Cthulhu.
Player: So what? I get an Ability roll for things not specifically covered in the rules. Are you denying my agency?

This post is profoundly misinformed and a complete mischaracterization of fiction first RPG play, and yet for some reason is always the first line of defense against player-facing agency mechanics.

"Trust your GM; (s)he knows what (s)he's doing and will optimize for the greater good. But the rest of the players in your group are moronic nitwits who will totally wreck your fun, so they should be denied all ability to engage with the shared fictional space directly."

 

[soviet]

This post is profoundly misinformed and a complete mischaracterization of fiction first RPG play, and yet for some reason is always the first line of defense against player-facing agency mechanics.

"Trust your GM; (s)he knows what (s)he's doing and will optimize for the greater good. But the rest of the players in your group are moronic nitwits who will totally wreck your fun, so they should be denied all ability to engage with the shared fictional space directly."

And if Cthulhu guy GMs something next week he will immediately become a paragon of reason and quiet authority, while last week's paragon of reason and quiet authority as GM will suddenly demand to trip over Excalibur and a million gold pieces on his trip to the barbers.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This post is profoundly misinformed and a complete mischaracterization of fiction first RPG play, and yet for some reason is always the first line of defense against player-facing agency mechanics.

"Trust your GM; (s)he knows what (s)he's doing and will optimize for the greater good. But the rest of the players in your group are moronic nitwits who will totally wreck your fun, so they should be denied all ability to engage with the shared fictional space directly."

If the game as written or as played doesn't allow for players to engage with the shared fictional space directly (ie, not through their PCs), then it doesn't. And it doesn't have to affect agency, because agency isn't exclusively about the ability to engage with the shared fictional space directly.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And if Cthulhu guy GMs something next week he will immediately become a paragon of reason and quiet authority, while last week's paragon of reason and quiet authority as GM will suddenly demand to trip over Excalibur and a million gold pieces on his trip to the barbers.

And you're saying that the desire for codified rules to constrain GMs has nothing to do with trying to head off "bad" GMs?

 

[FrogReaver]

If the game as written or as played doesn't allow for players to engage with the shared fictional space directly (ie, not through their PCs), then it doesn't. And it doesn't have to affect agency, because agency isn't exclusively about the ability to engage with the shared fictional space directly.

My table has an inviolable rule that players can’t throw poop at each other. Do tables that allow such behavior have more player agency?

 

[soviet]

And you're saying that the desire for codified rules to constrain GMs has nothing to do with trying to head off "bad" GMs?

What does codified mean here?

 

[soviet]

If the game as written or as played doesn't allow for players to engage with the shared fictional space directly (ie, not through their PCs), then it doesn't. And it doesn't have to affect agency, because agency isn't exclusively about the ability to engage with the shared fictional space directly.

Why are you conflating 'the rules of the game aren't under the authority of the GM' with 'players must have worldbuilding powers'?

 

[MGibster]

Here you are saying that GMs can have the authority to override the rules because they will not abuse it, they will only use it when absolutely necessary and just.

Uh, no, not at all. There are certainly GMs who abuse their authority, but this isn't really about abuse is it? The GM has a fundamentally different role from that of a player. To argue that the GM should be bound by the exact same rules as the players is just odd because they have different functions.

Here (in the same post) you are saying that players cannot even have the authority to declare actions that lead to the rules being engaged, because they will wildly abuse it.

I don't know how you interpreted my post this way, and I don't think it's in either of our best interest to sort this out. I'm just going to accept that we fundamentally disagree and move on.

 

[Campbell]

So, it's not the same rules. The rules are different for different roles. But there are rules that apply. The GM role is different from game to game. Being an Apocalypse World MC is not the same as being the GM of Into The Odd is not the same as being the GM of Burning Wheel. The rules for the GM to help structure play so we can have different sorts of experiences and structures of play, different expectations.

I will say someone who has run and played games like Apocalypse World and Marvel Heroic for decades I have never seen play degenerate in the way people who lack experience with the practice seem to assume it will. Mostly because I run games for people who take them seriously. There's not a single person I would run a more mainstream game for if I did not trust them to play in games like Apocalypse Keys.

I would keep in mind that when people claim play must degenerate there are people who take a lot of pride in craft who have been playing these games for decades. That perhaps their experience might count for something.

 

[soviet]

Uh, no, not at all. There are certainly GMs who abuse their authority, but this isn't really about abuse is it? The GM has a fundamentally different role from that of a player. To argue that the GM should be bound by the exact same rules as the players is just odd because they have different functions.

The respective functions of the players and the GM is a variable determined in part by the game rules and the group's agenda for play. There is no definitional player/GM role division.