The Good Sandbox Thread [+]

So what I'm pointing at is that intentional design of WMs/REs and all the supporting game tech does a particular thing for play. I see that "sandbox play" is seen by some in this thread as different from "hex or dungeoncrawl play." I'm not convinced of that (but I could be if it was adequately demonstrated as being sufficiently separate), but that might be an interesting conversation. However, beyond that potential difference in concept-space (sandbox contrasted with x-crawl), I'm curious what work changing these default parameters does for your play?
On this, I definitely see it as different myself. Though I think Hexcrawling is a good way to do sandbox. I am generally more interested in what is going on in population centers and with organizations than individual hexes (I use hex maps but that is strictly for managing overland movement, I don't number the hexes and populate them or key them to encounter tables: though I think that is a very solid method, I have no issue with doing that whatsoever). For me play is very much about the interaction between players and the world, but more importantly players and teh NPCs and groups they interact with. My campaigns are largely driven by things like sect conflict. If you want a movie that gets at what my campaigns are meant to feel like, check out the Chor Yuen film Killer Clans

This blog entry gets at some of that (it is a sect war sandbox). I refined this a bit over time and do it more simply now
 

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So what I'm pointing at is that intentional design of WMs/REs and all the supporting game tech does a particular thing for play. I see that "sandbox play" is seen by some in this thread as different from "hex or dungeoncrawl play." I'm not convinced of that (but I could be if it was adequately demonstrated as being sufficiently separate), but that might be an interesting conversation. However, beyond that potential difference in concept-space (sandbox contrasted with x-crawl), I'm curious what work changing these default parameters does for your play?

I don’t think I am abandoning anything as the system isn’t D&D. But the way I came to sandbox was as a fusion of the living adventure concept I have mentioned and sandbox. I found sandbox after serious frustration with paths, by going back to things like AD&D, Basic, Retroclones, participating in discussions. If I remember correctly it started when I picked Isle of Dread again, then read the 1E DMG again, and started to realize many of the older techniques and approaches I vaguely recalled from when I first started had a lot to offer. But I took what worked for me. I didn’t take every procedure and took whole cloth. A lot of the techniques were things I picked up from 2E as well (living adventure I first encountered in a 2E module)



What do you intend for it to do for your play because it certainly changes the gameplay dynamics of player decision-space (in a way that isn't tremendously afield from if a referee or an outside mediator decided to suddenly change the dynamics of American Football down & distance).
Again I don’t see myself as changing anything but as building the system towards what I was trying to do. So with Ogre Gate, I built that so I could have wandering heroes and martial artists inhabiting a jianghu where the spirit of play was sandbox but with elements of drama and other adventure features. I also was trying to make as many if the mechanics and meta resources as diegetic as I could because I was writing with immersion sandbox players in mind. But to my previous point, I want players to engage the world, the characters and the drama, not the procedures. The procedures are for me so I can do things fairly, so I can be surprised, etc.

Lots of people use those procedures from old D&D to good effect in a sandbox. I use some procedure like them. But I wanted something more flexible. So by making encounter time increments scalable to location, danger, intensity (really whatever the GM wants) that adds a lot for me in terms of being to do a number of things (like reflect his dangerous a place is). I see it like a dial and GMs can use it for different reasons
 
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I think to ask that every decision is made with maximum information without any effort on the players' part to acquire that is an unreasonable ask, though. It seems there needs to be some kind of balance there for the setting fiction to actually make sense.



That is, however, partly an artifact of the fact that modern and post-modern settings are generally very high information than you'll get in most fantasy or post-apocalypse settings.
There are a billion ways the fiction can make sense. If 999 million of them involve the players making blind, or near-blind choices; or alternatively involve the players following GM breadcrumbs to try and ascertain what is really at stake in their choice; then I will look to one of the remaining million possibilities.

Otherwise, as I posted upthread, the game ceases to have the appealing features of a sandbox.

I actually just posted about this in another thread; I'll repost here, setting out the contrast between two sandbox campaigns I ran, and what made one go bad and the other not:

The first campaign was long-running (1990-1997 inclusive) and sprawling. It started at 1st level and finished somewhere in the low-to-mid 20s. There were 10+ players over the course of the campaign, and 20+ PCs. Rolemaster is a very mechanically intensive system, and the campaign leaned heavily into that. The fiction - detail of backstory, details of play, note-keeping, etc - was intense too.

The mistakes I made in GMing this campaign resulted from not being able to manage all the backstory, and the climaxes. In retrospect I would diagnosis it as: RM doesn't have adequate formal processes for handling sprawling campaign events and stakes; and I hadn't developed adequate informal/ad hoc processes. The ones that I had developed worked OK for low-to-mid level play, but broke down as FRPGing hit the scope (mechanical and fictional) that opens up in higher level play.

Two examples:

*A massive NPC scry-teleport-fry raid on the PCs. It made sense in the fiction - the PCs had been fighting, on-and-off, with a powerful faction of wizards for a good chunk of the campaign. But my resolution of it was terrible: I statted up the rival wizards, worked out what they would be able to do, using their spells as rationally and ruthlessly as the players did theirs; and it was a massive hosing for the players (and their PCs). The mechanical framework - pure, unvarnished, hardcore simulationism - left no room for forgiveness. The whole thing left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

*The end of the campaign. The PCs had travelled to another dimension to confront evil godlings. I had started full-time work and so was short of prep-time, but RM is not especially conducive to low-prep GMing. As the backstory became ever more convoluted, and my notes harder to follow (being scrawled down during play), and the stakes less and less clear to the players, it felt like what should have been a climax was becoming rudderless and ultimately directionless. One of the players - someone who is still one of my best friend - ended the game by detonating a massive fireball (or similar effect) so that it engulfed all the PCs as well as some of the enemy NPCs. This was his deliberate game-ending move, and it worked.​

Lessons were learned. Initially they were mechanical: in our next RM campaign (which ran 1998-2008 inclusive) we excised a chunk of the scrying and teleportation magic, and also dropped a few other mechanical features (like power point multipliers) that favoured casters over non-spell-users.

But I also worked harder on the non-mechanical side. The campaign was just as sprawling, backstory heavy and intricate. But the fiction was established so as to make the prospects of overwhelming retaliation against the PCs less likely: it was largely cosmological rather than earthly factional conflict. The stakes, and how they related to the PCs, were kept clearer. This game came to a natural, and hugely satisfying (for me a least) end, around 27th level. The mistakes, of letting mechanics and fiction both get out of the group's control, had been avoided.
 

Otherwise, as I posted upthread, the game ceases to have the appealing features of a sandbox.

I actually just posted about this in another thread; I'll repost here, setting out the contrast between two sandbox campaigns I ran, and what made one go bad and the other not:
Can you please keep these conversations to the other threads. We are getting in the weeds again on style debates. If you have sandboxes, I want you to feel free to post about them (whatever the methods or styles) and others too. We don't have to argue about what a sandbox is, how to achieve it, what does sandbox better or worse here
 

I use hexes but I wouldn't call my campaigns Hexcrawls. The way I use them is mainly as a way of measuring distance and knowing when to roll for Survival to see if the players have an encounter.
Yeah, I call my game a hexcrawl, but they’re mostly a tool for me to determine how long it takes to get somewhere and a currency for players to spend (e.g., looking for something in a hex costs a hex of movement). I ran Kingmaker in PF1, and while it end up being my favorite one I ran, the hex-crawling was my least favorite part. Players would just scrobble back and forth across hexes looking for something. The play felt best when we were engaging in stuff directly relevant to them (e.g., dealing with kingdom problems like a delver infestation in their mines or the really stupid kobolds that tried and failed to set up a settlement in the caves just north of their capital).
 

Can you please keep these conversations to the other threads. We are getting in the weeds again on style debates. If you have sandboxes, I want you to feel free to post about them (whatever the methods or styles) and others too. We don't have to argue about what a sandbox is, how to achieve it, what does sandbox better or worse here
I posted examples of sandboxes in the thread you're replying to.

As for my reply to @Thomas Shey, I considered whether or not to reply: but given that you XPed his post, I assumed you did not regard it as out-of-bounds for your thread.
 

I posted examples of sandboxes in the thread you're replying to.

As for my reply to @Thomas Shey, I considered whether or not to reply: but given that you XPed his post, I assumed you did not regard it as out-of-bounds for your thread.

I didn't realize what thread it was in when +1'd it. I just think it would be good if we could put aside these debates and have more positive discussion of sandbox
 

There are a billion ways the fiction can make sense. If 999 million of them involve the players making blind, or near-blind choices; or alternatively involve the players following GM breadcrumbs to try and ascertain what is really at stake in their choice; then I will look to one of the remaining million possibilities.

That's of course your choice, but to suggest there is no agency or little enough to be irrelevant in games where some choices are going to require effort for them not to be blind is ridiculous overstatement. Your position seemed to be that requiring the players to make effort to have enough information to make choices intelligibly at least commonly directs them to not bother and just drop onto the rails, and that seems a pretty extreme claim that requires something beyond just assertation.

Otherwise, as I posted upthread, the game ceases to have the appealing features of a sandbox.

And as I said, this seems an extreme overstatement. It defines a sandbox as only possible if full and complete information is available to the players and PCs at all times. Its my opinion that's an extreme position. This does not say that its not possible for players to get discouraged and just go with the flow, but I'd argue that people for whom that easily happens do not strike me as people well suited for sandbox games in the first place.
 

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