GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Kickstarter Pre-Launch Page

[Upper_Krust]

You keep saying that, but that's not what the common objection to AI art is about. Folks' ethical issues with it aren't because they think it's too easy (buying stock art is easy, too, but they have no ethical issues with that), it's because the art, no matter how much you change it, was stolen to begin with--and those artists also spent many thousands of hours honing their crafts before having their work scraped by AI companies.

I understand that - someone against AI on principal does not care that I spent 30+ hours repainting from an AI-base. But when I look at those illustrations I see the days, weeks and months of hard work I personally invested into them - for me those are my paintings.

I'm not using that argument to sway anyone's opinion, just that they see my side of things. If people are still going to have a negative opinion of me then I'll just take it on the chin and wish them best of luck.

Now, a lot of people will endlessly wrangle over the word 'stolen' because, sure, it's shorthand for a more complicated issue, and I've no interest in those semantic rabbit-holes. I'll leave that to the courts. But again--from a practical business point of view, and ignoring the ethics--the fact that so many people (including me, for the record) view it that way is what matters. So even if the ethics don't trouble you, the optics should from a marketing point of view.

I'm offering both a Steampunkette solution - a project born solely of AI art (unlike my own project that just ran out of personal funding) that others here seemed all too happy to back (including your good self).

I'm also offering an Art Free version that will get upgraded to an Artists Sketch Edition if a certain Stretch Goal is hit...actual just spoke to one of my artists about it 10 minutes ago and he loves the idea.

So I am doing my best to cater to all sides while not bankrupting myself in the process.

I think the fact that you keep talking about having sunk so many hours into it that you can't go back is kind of a distraction from the core issue. From an outside stance, my question then is how could you not know that the use of AI was a problematic issue in this industry before you started? It's raged across these very forums in dozens of threads hundreds of pages long for the last couple of years, it's affected multiple companies in the industry, is the subject of dozens of lawsuits, and it's been in the news pretty much constantly. Being in this position where you're about to launch, after thousands of hours of work, and folks are only now finding out that the art is AI, seems to have been an avoidable situation with a little more planning early on.

I knew it was an issue, but I wasn't aware of any good solutions until my good buddy dave2008 mentioned how Steampunkette handled her Kickstarter.

Obviously my project is considerably bigger than that but lets see what happens, I'm happy to give it a shot.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it did seem that you weren't addressing what the objection of some of your potential customers actually was. I wish you well, and hope you manage to resolve this problem. It's an intriguing project; I can't support it while it is associated with issues I have ethical issue with, but I do sympathise with the dilemma you find yourself in. I hope you find a solution. Good luck!

I understand you are a busy fellow so you may not have read all the posts - but I think I have addressed all the issues presented to the best of my ability.

I will have an AI Free version.
I will replace AI with Real Artists work based on Stretch Goals.
I will have a complete Artist Drawn Sketch Edition if that particular Stretch Goal gets funded.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Kinda disappointed that everyone's turning on the project in the 11th hour when the art situation has been documented periodically for years.

It'll be okay amigo, whatever happens, happens.

 

[dave2008]

Yes, I gathered.

Oh well that settles it!

To be clear, your ‘feelings’ are not computer science and shouldn’t be represented as such. When you declare in a factual-sounding manner that AIs are just doing what human do, perhaps qualify that with a note that that’s just how you ‘feel’ and is not actual science. The issue is thorny enough without throwing in misinformation.

My apologies, that is exactly what I was trying to do. If you are willing, can you explain where I failed in that approach? I am always hoping to improve my communication. As a starter, here is how I tried to get a across that my opinion was not based on the relation of neuroscience to AI and computer science:

"I do not know all the science behind AI,..."
"... is not entirely dissimilar to how I "feel" I create art...
"...and how I hear artist describe how..."

I guess, ultimately, you seem to be getting hung up on the science/technically aspect of AI (please correct me if I am wrong), while for me that is not the issue with AI.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I think that sounds fine, but why would you not included the work you have already commissioned (in the blank or sketch version)?

It just seems a bit 'off' to me, a bit inconsistent.

 

[dave2008]

It just seems a bit 'off' to me, a bit inconsistent.

I thought you might say something like that. But let's face it, a mix of BW and color and widely different quality and styles of art is been part of D&D from the beginning. You might even get some nostalgia sales out of it that way?!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Sorry @Upper_Krust but your thread is basically identical 100-page AI ethics thread #42. I know that’s not what you wanted for it.

Yes its all went a bit crazy - although I have picked up 10 new followers on the Pre-Launch page since that particular argument started so, every cloud as they say...

With that I’m going to bow out. I can’t do this thread yet again; it’s exhausting. But I wish you luck!

Cheers mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

I thought you might say something like that. But let's face it, a mix of BW and color and widely different quality and styles of art is been part of D&D from the beginning. You might even get some nostalgia sales out of it that way?!

Originally - back in 2020 this project (when the monsters were still included in the book) was planned to be all Black & White and I have probably 100+ Artist Pencil illustrations. But I had saved up what I thought was a decent chunk of change and decided to get those illustrations coloured by another amazing artist. Of course in my hubris the project kept growing - and I eventually had to split the Gods and Monsters into two books. Hence the reason things like the Apocalypse Camel are now in the Epic Bestiary.

Yes that is a city its about to swallow....and each Volcanic Hump is the Lair of an exiled Archdevil.

...and same artist to do the Artist Sketch Edition

Anyway to circle back to your point - while certainly D&D went through a phase of mixing monochrome and colour art (Primarily 2E), that approach was largely phased out in 3E where it was typically one or the other with the exception of those (pretty cool) Chapter Start pages in 3E which had some awesome pencil sketches. 4E seemed to go full colour.

I can't remember the last time I saw a good integration of both Colour and B&W art in an RPG book - they tend to work best as one or the other.

By the way mate - you were right about Twilight of the Gods - 4 episodes in - it is even better the Blood of Zeus, just saw the Fafnir fight very good - interesting to note the Tail Smash attack causing a sort of mini-Earthquake.

 

[Morrus]

My apologies, that is exactly what I was trying to do. If you are willing, can you explain where I failed in that approach? I am always hoping to improve my communication.

Here you go:

I just want to point out that living artist have been "scraping artist work without their knowledge, permission, or compensation..." for centuries before AI came along and did.

No mention of ‘feelings’ there. Just a false comparison presented as fact.

I guess, ultimately, you seem to be getting hung up on the science/technically aspect of AI (please correct me if I am wrong), while for me that is not the issue with AI.

It’s easy to ignore ethics when you ignore the facts. You might as well say “you seem to be getting hung up on the actual stabbing, while for me that is not the issue with this death.” If you conveniently ignore the stabbing, sure, there’s no murder to worry about.

But we all have our own ethics. Now I really really really want to get out of this thread be had I find this repeated conversation unpleasant and tiresome and I keep getting dragged back in and I can’t waste yet more time repeating the same things over and over. So, with apologies, I won’t reply to you any further.

 

[dave2008]

Here you go:

No mention of ‘feelings’ there. Just a false comparison presented as fact.

Thank you for responding, but to did my other posts I quoted not help clarify my viewpoint? Is it that one unclarity sours the whole intent? I can understand that and try to be more explicit / clear with my posts - but it is difficult not to slip up!

Also, I agree I didn't discuss my "feelings" in what you quoted, but I mean it is fact. Artist steal from artist. I quoted up thread where Alexis Rockman admitted to me last week that he "stole" from Charles Knight in his 1992 work "Evolution." This is not controversial or new (at least I didn't think). I mean Alexis was very mater-of-fact about it (and pretty much any artist know of is as well). Creators steal from creators - this is not new.

There are difference in how/the intent between AI and human stealing, but they are both stealing (it is more nuanced - but as you said that is semantics really). Perhaps if I could have made it clear that AI and artist steal differently? Perhaps I could clarify that artist have well earned/trained talent and AI does not? IDK, I just thought that was obvious.

It’s easy to ignore ethics when you ignore the facts. You might as well say “you seem to be getting hung up on the actual stabbing, while for me that is not the issue with this death.” If you conveniently ignore the stabbing, sure, there’s no murder to worry about.

But we all have our own ethics. Now I really really really want to get out of this thread be had I find this repeated conversation unpleasant and tiresome and I keep getting dragged back in and I can’t waste yet more time repeating the same things over and over. So, with apologies, I won’t reply to you any further.

I have many ethical issues with AI, which I listed and you perhaps missed, but the stealing isn't a big one for me. I mean I am the person that brought up the AI issue in this thread after all. I am really trying to get the AI content out of this project!

I will drop this line of discussion in this thread as well.

 

[dave2008]

Originally - back in 2020 this project (when the monsters were still included in the book) was planned to be all Black & White and I have probably 100+ Artist Pencil illustrations. But I had saved up what I thought was a decent chunk of change and decided to get those illustrations coloured by another amazing artist. Of course in my hubris the project kept growing - and I eventually had to split the Gods and Monsters into two books. Hence the reason things like the Apocalypse Camel are now in the Epic Bestiary.

View attachment 403942

Yes that is a city its about to swallow....and each Volcanic Hump is the Lair of an exiled Archdevil.

...and same artist to do the Artist Sketch Edition

Anyway to circle back to your point - while certainly D&D went through a phase of mixing monochrome and colour art (Primarily 2E), that approach was largely phased out in 3E where it was typically one or the other with the exception of those (pretty cool) Chapter Start pages in 3E which had some awesome pencil sketches. 4E seemed to go full colour.

I can't remember the last time I saw a good integration of both Colour and B&W art in an RPG book - they tend to work best as one or the other.

By the way mate - you were right about Twilight of the Gods - 4 episodes in - it is even better the Blood of Zeus, just saw the Fafnir fight very good - interesting to note the Tail Smash attack causing a sort of mini-Earthquake.

Love that sketch! If that artist is doing the BW version - I am all in! That would be fantastic. Then maybe stretch goals for color versions / replacement. Heck, I might even want both!