GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Kickstarter Pre-Launch Page

[Morrus]

I agree, but its no exaggeration when I say I have spent over a thousand hours re-painting the AI art by my hand - in a bunch of cases I am probably spending more time working on an illustration than an artist would have painting it from scratch.

You keep saying that, but that's not what the common objection to AI art is about. Folks' ethical issues with it aren't because they think it's too easy (buying stock art is easy, too, but they have no ethical issues with that), it's because the art, no matter how much you change it, was stolen to begin with--and those artists also spent many thousands of hours honing their crafts before having their work scraped by AI companies.

Now, a lot of people will endlessly wrangle over the word 'stolen' because, sure, it's shorthand for a more complicated issue, and I've no interest in those semantic rabbit-holes. I'll leave that to the courts. But again--from a practical business point of view, and ignoring the ethics--the fact that so many people (including me, for the record) view it that way is what matters. So even if the ethics don't trouble you, the optics should from a marketing point of view.

I think the fact that you keep talking about having sunk so many hours into it that you can't go back is kind of a distraction from the core issue. From an outside stance, my question then is how could you not know that the use of AI was a problematic issue in this industry before you started? It's raged across these very forums in dozens of threads hundreds of pages long for the last couple of years, it's affected multiple companies in the industry, is the subject of dozens of lawsuits, and it's been in the news pretty much constantly. Being in this position where you're about to launch, after thousands of hours of work, and folks are only now finding out that the art is AI, seems to have been an avoidable situation with a little more planning early on.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it did seem that you weren't addressing what the objection of some of your potential customers actually was. I wish you well, and hope you manage to resolve this problem. It's an intriguing project; I can't support it while it is associated with issues I have ethical issue with, but I do sympathise with the dilemma you find yourself in. I hope you find a solution. Good luck!

 

[MazzelDazzle]

Kinda disappointed that everyone's turning on the project in the 11th hour when the art situation has been documented periodically for years.

 

[dave2008]

Thank you for giving your opinion DB, I have a couple of thoughts:

But I'm one who won't be backing if AI generated art is used in the book. It's not that YOU are stealing an artist's work, it's that you would be participating in a technology that is based on scraping artists work without their knowledge, permission, or compensation. Can't respect or support that mate.

I just want to point out that living artist have been "scraping artist work without their knowledge, permission, or compensation..." for centuries before AI came along and did. As an amateur artist myself I don't really find this aspect of AI objectionable. The issue I have with AI generated images, and why I tend not to support it, is by using AI images you are not commissioning a human artist and that, IMO, is not good for society (for several reasons).

It certainly won't be a good way to launch a career in RPG production. Is "God Rules" a one-and-done? Or is this hopefully the beginning of Upper Krust Game Studios?

Just wanted to point out this is not launching UK's career. He has been publishing epic/immortal D&D content since 3e.

 

[dave2008]

I think the context of the book does a lot of heavy lifting in this example. I'm a bit of an outlier perhaps, but I simply can't imagine most people are going to use an Epic Rules Player Guide as a picture book and revisit the illustrations often. It's very kind of U_K to give us art at all but the meat of the book will be text, and if I'm cooking up gods and stories, my imagination is prioritized over picture examples from a book.

I get your point, but for me, the art in 1e Deities and Demigods was what sparked my imagination as much if not more than the text. I will always ask for more and better art - but that is just me!

 

[dave2008]

I just thought of something how about this idea:

1. I'll offer a Blank Edition (with no art).
2. If the Kickstarter reaches £25,000 I will use that money to create the Artists Sketch Edition (which will cost about £2500 now that I have it properly priced).
3. Anyone who backed the Blank Edition will get the Artists Sketch Edition - if that goal is reached - otherwise they get the Blank Edition: call it a leap of faith.

How does that sound?

I think that sounds fine, but why would you not included the work you have already commissioned (in the blank or sketch version)?

 

[dave2008]

Kinda disappointed that everyone's turning on the project in the 11th hour when the art situation has been documented periodically for years.

That may be my fault unfortunately, as I am the one that brought it up. I am backing the project regardless, but I brought it up out of concern for the impact it can have on the project. I know UK is releasing this project, but I want it to spread as far and as wide as possible. I think AI art my hamper that spread.

I think it is a great project and I have been following it for a long time. I am very eager to finally get it in my hands. I would have probably gotten it sooner if I had just kept my mouth shut, but I wanted to make sure UK understood the impact his decision could have.

 

[Morrus]

I just want to point out that living artist have been "scraping artist work without their knowledge, permission, or compensation..." for centuries before AI came along and did.

Oh, this again! Every. Single. Thread! I need an AI bot to do this bit for me.

The processes that humans and AI do are not the same—neuroscience and AI are not synonyms. They’re not even vaguely similar. AI is not doing what humans do. You are not an LLM or similar to one (unless there’s something you want to share with us?)

Sorry @Upper_Krust but your thread is basically identical 100-page AI ethics thread #42. I know that’s not what you wanted for it.

With that I’m going to bow out. I can’t do this thread yet again; it’s exhausting. But I wish you luck!

 

[dave2008]

Oh, this again! Every. Single. Thread! I need an AI bot to do this bit for me.

The processes that humans and AI do are not the same—neuroscience and AI are not synonyms. They’re not even vaguely similar. AI is not doing what humans do. You are not an LLM or similar to one (unless there’s something you want to share with us?)

Sorry @Upper_Krust but your thread is basically identical 100-page AI ethics thread #42. I know that’s not what you wanted for it.

With that I’m going to bow out. I can’t do this thread yet again; it’s exhausting. But I wish you luck!

I do not know all the science behind AI, though my son is a CS working on machine learning and AI so I do have access to a lot of information on this subject (though my wife is much more familiar with LLM than I am). All can say is, as an amateur artist, the process described by which AI creates images is not entirely dissimilar to how I "feel" I create art and how I hear artist describe how they create art. The difference, and ethical issue, for me is not in the "stealing" but the lack of effort and creativity of AI and its financial, environmental, and displacement of human capital / expertise cost.

I mean it is simply a fact that artist steal from other artist and have done so for a long time. The method of how a human mind or AI does it, is less important to me (though maybe my ignorance is impacting my opinion on this)

I do agree it is time to move on from this subject!

 

[dave2008]

On that note: @Upper_Krust , why don't you post a preview of something so we can talk about something instead of AI art!

 

[Morrus]

I do not know all the science behind AI,

Yes, I gathered.

All can say is, as an amateur artist, the process described by which AI creates images is not entirely dissimilar to how I "feel" I create art

Oh well that settles it!

To be clear, your ‘feelings’ are not computer science and shouldn’t be represented as such. When you declare in a factual-sounding manner that AIs are just doing what human do, perhaps qualify that with a note that that’s just how you ‘feel’ and is not actual science. The issue is thorny enough without throwing in misinformation.