D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[Laurefindel]

What if Constitution exists, but isnt part of the ability array or point buy? For example, what if the species determined the Constitution value. So the Human is always Constitution 12, but the feats can improve it. The Fighter and Barbarian classes might grant a bonus to Constitution.

The idea is Constitution and Wisdom split off. Then the deep four are the main place character concept decisions happen.

Strength would gain the Fortitude save, but Constitution remains the source for hit points.

If Con and Wis are still in the game, they might as well be like the other ability scores. Completely folding Con into Str and Wis into Int has more merits, even if you decouple bonus hp from (reformed) Str and perception from (reformed) Int

 

[Yaarel]

I have an idea for "six", but want to doublecheck the following.

Completely folding Con into Str and Wis into Int has more merits, even if you decouple bonus hp from (reformed) Str and perception from (reformed) Int

Are you saying, it is tolerable to merge Strength and Constitution? For merging Wisdom, it seems conceptually more useful to give Perception to Intelligence but Will to Charisma.

What if the saves have official names?

Strength includes the "Constitution saving throw".
Dexterity includes the "Athletics saving throw".
Intelligence includes the "Perception saving throw".
Charisma includes the "Wisdom saving throw".

If Con and Wis are still in the game, they might as well be like the other ability scores.

In the design space of abilities, they compete against each other. They need to balance.

For example, if there is a deep four, then having a choice of array, either +3, +2, +1, +0, or a straight +2, +2, +2, +2, works out well in terms of balance. Where to place the high bonuses needs to be a choice, without one being better than the other.

 

[Yaarel]

In the idea for the "six", there are only four, plus the species determines the remaining two.

It would probably be more "tolerable" if the species determines Constitution (typical size and toughness whence bonus hit points) and Perception (the physical senses, such as keen eyesight, hearing, or sense of smell). However, Perception is one of the mental aspects that actually is useful in combat, and is worth keeping to help balance the choice of mental abilities in comparison to physical abilities.


So for D&D species, what if Wisdom means "innate magic" and some species are more magical than others. So a Human is always Wisdom 12, but feats can improve it, and perhaps certain caster classes grant a boost to Wisdom, similar to how Fighter and Barbarian grant a boost to Constitution.

Charisma gets the Will save. But maybe the species Wisdom relates to Concentration checks?

Then "wisdom" means neither Will nor Perception. But there are many reallife examples where magic traditions are called "wisdom".

 

[Laurefindel]

Are you saying, it is tolerable to merge Strength and Constitution?

Personally, I find it the most tolerable merging, but others might disagree. Even with a merged STR+CON stat giving bonus hp, it’s still not eclipsing DEX. It would be eclipsing the other abilities though.

For merging Wisdom, it seems conceptually more useful to give Perception to Intelligence but Will to Charisma.

Sounds sensible

What if the saves have official names?

Strength includes the "Constitution saving throw".
Dexterity includes the "Athletics saving throw".
Intelligence includes the "Perception saving throw".
Charisma includes the "Wisdom saving throw".

I’d go back to fortitude/reflexes/will, and add perception. It’s been 15 years since 3e has been shelved and I still catch myself calling for a fort save or a will save once in a while.

Again, personally, I always preferred perception to be a save-like mechanism, leaving investigation be the active noticing skill.

In the design space of abilities, they compete against each other.

I don’t disagree here…

They need to balance.

… but I disagree there. Still, in the spirit of participating constructively, smashing the three mental stats and rebuilding them as two is a good way forward. Basically have a mental strength and a mental dexterity. Not sure if “Intelligence” fits best as a name for the mental agility but that’s neither here nor there.

However, D&D had traditionally two types of casters but now has three (for each INT, WIS, and CHA). You’ll have to decide what to do with Clerics and Druids (and rangers). They’d feel better in CHA (except perhaps for rangers) but that would exacerbate even more the lack of INT casters.

 

[Yaarel]

Personally, I find it the most tolerable merging, but others might disagree. Even with a merged STR+CON stat giving bonus hp, it’s still not eclipsing DEX. It would be eclipsing the other abilities though.

Sounds sensible

I’d go back to fortitude/reflexes/will, and add perception. It’s been 15 years since 3e has been shelved and I still catch myself calling for a fort save or a will save once in a while.

The 3e saving throws, Fortitude, Reflex, Will, plus Perception, could actually be the abilities, and it would work excellently.

Again, personally, I always preferred perception to be a save-like mechanism, leaving investigation be the active noticing skill.

One benefit of treating Perception as saving throw is it solves the problem of whether someone decides to 'investigate' an illusion. If they made their save, then by definition, they will investigate it because they did notice something was off.

Plus when dealing with 'hidden' creatures and objects, it seems awkward that the 'Passive Perception' would either always or never notice it. The save allows for chance, even if not actively searching.

(If the DM really needs to avoid alerting the players by rolling dice for 'no reason', then the DM can create a list of prerolled d20 numbers, and scratch them off as they get used up.)

I don’t disagree here…
… but I disagree there. Still, in the spirit of participating constructively, smashing the three mental stats and rebuilding them as two is a good way forward. Basically have a mental strength and a mental dexterity. Not sure if “Intelligence” fits best as a name for the mental agility but that’s neither here nor there.

Point taken about traditionalism. Any updates to D&D must be things that most D&D players either love or can live with. They need to be planned out ahead of time, so players can understand the updates and approve them.

However, D&D had traditionally two types of casters but now has three (for each INT, WIS, and CHA). You’ll have to decide what to do with Clerics and Druids (and rangers). They’d feel better in CHA (except perhaps for rangers) but that would exacerbate even more the lack of INT casters.

For the casters, Druids are Perception. Clerics (spiritual leaders!) are definitely Charisma.

As a thought experiment, mages applying the eight:

Artificer: Intelligence, Dexterity (irregular use of precision)
Barbarian: Wisdom, Charisma
Bard: Charisma, ... Intelligence (Lore), Athletics (Dance), Perception (musician)
Cleric: Charisma, Wisdom
Druid: Perception (attentive to nature), Wisdom (altered consciousness)
Fighter: −
Monk: Wisdom, Perception
Paladin: Wisdom, Charisma (more brave than flashy)
Psion: Charisma (innate magic, telepathy), Intelligence (intuitive knowledge)
Ranger: Perception, Intelligence
Rogue: −
Sorcerer: Charisma (innate magic, self-expression), Constitution (irregular use of body)
Warlock: Intelligence, Charisma (people skills and in this case relationship-with-entities skills)
Wizard: Intelligence, Perception

Note, I like how 4e gave each class a primary ability, then each of the subclasses a different secondary ability.

 

[Yaarel]

Shadow of the Weird Wizard uses the deep four abilities.

The four 'attributes' are:
• Strength
• Agility
• Intellect
• Will

Indeed, Agility handles both the fine motor skills and the gross motor skills (Jump and Climb).

 

[Yaarel]

Here is an arrangement toward balancing the classic six abilities. The Attack bonus and spell DC are powerful. So Strength and Wisdom are simply the Attack/DC plus a useful perk. The remaining four abilities lack Attack/DC, but do have Save/AC plus substantial utility corresponding to the deep four.

	Attack/DC	Save/AC (Force)	Save/AC (Precision)
Physical Abilities	STRENGTH Integration of forceful Constitution and precise Dexterity to physically overcome opponents.	CONSTITUTION Body structure constituting characteristics such as size, musculature, brute toughness, stamina, and health.	DEXTERITY Agile mobility coordinating gross motor skills of athleticism and fine motor skills of quick and steady hands.
	• Physical Attack • Lifting/Break Doors	• Fortitude Save • Heavy Armor AC • Hit Point Bonus • Size/Reach • Physical Damage • Heavy Weapons • Thrown Weapons	• Reflex Save • Dodge AC • Finesse Weapons • Shot Weapons • Speed • Climb/Balance • Jump/Fall • Athletics • Stealth • Sleight
Mental Abilities	WISDOM Integration of holistic Charisma and detailed Intelligence to mentally overcome opponents.	CHARISMA Personal presence asserting influence, social skills, emotional intelligence, sense of self, sanity, willpower, self-expression, artistic beauty, aura of influence, people reading, larger than life, fate, luck, innate magic, empathy, and telepathy.	INTELLIGENCE Knowledgeability detailing observation, physical senses, awareness, learning, self-teaching, problem solving, logic, intuition, psychic prophecy, any means of arriving at knowledge and understanding, math, science, physics, and technology.
	• Spell DC • Mental Attack • Intimidate/Frighten • Embolden/Morale	• Will Save • Insight/Sanity • Empathy/Telepathy • Innate Spellcasting • Detect Magic • Luck • Persuade/Charm • Animal Handling • Performance/Beauty • Prestige/Honor	• Perception Save • Initiative/Surprise • Concentration • Consciousness • Physical Senses • Forecast (Redo Turn) • All Knowledge Skills • Intuition/Divination • Investigate • Deception/Replica

 

[Yaarel]

Huh. I thought the above post would get more response. Because it is the classic six abilities. And it does seem like a way forward toward mechanical balance.