D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[Yaarel]

Hypothetically, if the following permutation is the solution, what might its balance look like?

DEX (attack): STR (save to avoid), CON (save to withstand)
CHA (DC): INT (save to avoid), WIS (save to withstand)

Flavorwise, this permutation of the six feels excellent. DEX is precision so determining the d20 Attack bonus for every weapon is sensical in the context of D&D traditions. It also solves the 'finesse' abuse. Both longswords and bows use DEX to attack. Only longswords and strengthbows add STR to damage. STR becomes the Athletics ability, including Jump and Balance. Changes include STR loses the attack bonus but gains the Reflex save and unarmored AC bonus as part of agile Athletics. DEX loses athletic Acrobatics, but keeps Stealth, which is a useful and interesting ribbon relating to precision. CON is passive but adds many hitpoints. Probably CON is also the prereq for Heavy Armor and Size, and correlating with the 'brute' tropes. Meanwhile, CHA is innate magic and aggressive to influence others magically. For nonmagical characters, CHA offers the mental attack bonus, perhaps for feints and so on during combat. Cha is the go-to for social skills. INT is perceptive and knowledgeable, responsive with Initiative, and some of its knowledge lore might offer benefits in combat. Wis probably least of the six here. It has the will save, and probably works for Concentration saves, and not much else. So WIS needs lots of things to do, which means it needs a clear salient go-to concept. WIS is mental fortitude, including confidence, courage, inspiring morale, and intimidating opponents. It also includes altered states of consciousness, for magical concepts.

For me it is awkward to see CHA as mental precision, paralleling manual fine motor Dexterity. But if the rest works, I live with that. Perhaps the Charm factor of CHA requires polish and precision.

In this permutation, I like INT paralleling STR in the sense of muscular agility.

With some oomphing of all of the combat benefits for mental abilities, and then seriously buffing up WIS, this permutation might work?

 

[Laurefindel]

An impression is, players that want the abilities to be six, also lack interest in making these six balance.

Therefore, efforts to balance the six abilities are fruitless.

The only way forward for designers to advance D&D is to deprioritize a commitment to the six abilities.

… but part of D&D’s identity is this commitment to the six abilities. My impression is that many players don’t want designers to advance D&D that much, or at least, not in this direction, as frustrating as it can be sometimes.

 

[Yaarel]

… but part of D&D’s identity is this commitment to the six abilities.

Heh, says you.

I feel zero "loyalty" to the six abilities. If a different arrangement works better, I prefer that. If we can make the six work better, that is fine too.

D&D traditions include alternative abilities, including Comeliness, Honor, and Sanity. I dont think these are useful as abilities. But the experiment with Comeliness confirmed that Charisma is a mental ability and not physical one, thus cannot be used as if some kind universal standard for physical beauty. Also, statting Comeliness or Charisma as the sexual seduction ability was problematic. 3e invented Perception, but wrongly gave it to Wisdom. It should have given it to Intelligence. Later 4e tried to balance the saves by allowing each to come from two abilities. Fortitude ‹ STR or CON; Reflex ‹ DEX or INT; Will ‹ CHA or WIS. Meanwhile every ability was usable for the attack. The persistent tradition of rethinking the abilities across the editions evidences they are not yet optimally functional for the game design of D&D.

As-is, the six abilities are not 'evergreen'.

My impression is that many players don’t want designers to advance D&D that much, or at least, not in this direction, as frustrating as it can be sometimes.

3e is now dead.

The decision of Pathfinder to transition to PF2 effectively discontinues the 3e tradition. 3e is now a 'museum game', like Chainmail is. 3e is now irrelevant to popculture and lacks corporate profitability.

3e died because its players were incapable of evolving. The rest of the world passed them by.

5.14 is exceedingly popular. By many indications, 5.24 is too. But youth doesnt last forever.

The six abilities have deep structural problems. Every proposal, large or small, must run by the gaming community for approval before implementation, such as UA surveys. Nevertheless, the six abilities require rethinking to resolve their systemic difficulties.

If we can evolve, we dont need to die.

 

[Theory of Games]

People still play 3e, 3.5 and PF1e. You can find those games being played all across the internet (live streams and Play-by-Post). So they aren't dead, especially since designers are still producing content for those games (check DrivethruRPG).

But I'd say keep working at your ttrpg because it could be what's next

 

[Yaarel]

People still play 3e, 3.5 and PF1e. You can find those games being played all across the internet (live streams and Play-by-Post). So they aren't dead, especially since designers are still producing content for those games (check DrivethruRPG).

People still play Chainmail.

Popculture doesnt. Profitability doesnt.

But I'd say keep working at your ttrpg because it could be what's next

Heh, I am interpreting the comment as a snide remark from a 'gatekeeper'.

Nevertheless, I think 5e might be able to be evergreen. At least in the sense that it remains relevant until virtual reality obsoletes it.

5.14 had problems. 5.24 resolved some of them. Possibly a future 5e update or splatbook can resolve the problems relating to the abilities. I am ok with the fix being optional, as long as it is selfevidently easy to implement, without rewriting books of texts.

Before an update is possible, we need to arrive at a system that seems capable of broad appeal.

 

[Theory of Games]

People still play Chainmail.

Popculture doesnt. Profitability doesnt.

Well. Let's not go crazy here. Profitability is the finish line IMO and marketing can drive popularity which can drive profits. But that's not this discussion, is it? I'm waiting for someone to make the next big ttrpg that isn't like D&D or Shadowun.

If it were me I'd start with no abilities and focus on skills, but that's just me. I think the ttrpg that eventually topples D&D will be a different kind of experience from what we're doing right now.

 

[jgsugden]

...D&D traditions include alternative abilities, including Comeliness, Honor, and Sanity. I don't think these are useful as abilities...

They're not baseline abilities you need to have in every game, but - gosh tootin - they have a place in certain games - but I do not use typical ability score approaches (skill rolls) with them often.

I used Comeliness for nearly 20 years. However, I gave the players the option to pick it. It had utility, but not in the way the other abilities did. It gave me and the player a numeric score that communicated how attractive their PC was in their eyes. It gave them a reminder of what it was so that when a 'first impression' scenario I had an NPC respond to how attractive or unattractive the PC was, the response was expected. In many ways it was no different than the PC describing their character as attractive or unattractive to me during session 0. Most players elected to roll their attractiveness or set it at 10 to 12. I stopped using it in 2020 when I moved to a new region - but that was mostly because I was working with all new players in a new region and was overly cautious about offending people.

Honor was also used as an optional ability score until then. If honor was important to your PC, you also selected where it began - and then I raised it or lowered it based upon your RP. You had to have a personal code to have honor, so it elicited some good Session 0 discussion. It only had impact for 2 homebrew classes that were acceptable at the time in the eyes of my group, but venture too far into stereotyping. I would use it again, but mostly to help players feel accountable for their personal code.

Sanity is 100% in use in my games. However, players are not even told about it. I set a starting sanity based upon their Session 0. Then I raise it or lower it based upon the horrors they experience and the RP decisions they make. Most specifically, when they deal with Aberrations and other influences from the Far Realm and suffer a consequence, such as failing a fear save, it has a chance to push them more mad. The sanity score mostly impacts how I describe a situation to them. The more sane they are, the less terrifying the description. The less sanity they have, the less terror is woven into the description. There are a few mechanical differences for homebrew monsters - (PC rolls a Wisdom Save. If failed, roll on table 1 for Sanity less than 6, table 2 for Sanity 7 to 13, and table 3 for Sanity above 13. Like Comeliness, this is mostly about playing into the decisions the player sets in Session 0 and then using this as shorthand to track how the adventures push them more towards madness. I tend to have a discussion with players that see their sanity dip too much and ask them if they feel their PC would have a reaction to all the horrible things that has taken place to them ... but it is a player decision.

 

[payn]

Heh, says you.

I feel zero "loyalty" to the six abilities. If a different arrangement works better, I prefer that. If we can make the six work better, that is fine too.

D&D traditions include alternative abilities, including Comeliness, Honor, and Sanity. I dont think these are useful as abilities. But the experiment with Comeliness confirmed that Charisma is a mental ability and not physical one, thus cannot be used as if some kind universal standard for physical beauty. Also, statting Comeliness or Charisma as the sexual seduction ability was problematic. 3e invented Perception, but wrongly gave it to Wisdom. It should have given it to Intelligence. Later 4e tried to balance the saves by allowing each to come from two abilities. Fortitude ‹ STR or CON; Reflex ‹ DEX or INT; Will ‹ CHA or WIS. Meanwhile every ability was usable for the attack. The persistent tradition of rethinking the abilities across the editions evidences they are not yet optimally functional for the game design of D&D.

As-is, the six abilities are not 'evergreen'.



3e is now dead.

The decision of Pathfinder to transition to PF2 effectively discontinues the 3e tradition. 3e is now a 'museum game', like Chainmail is. 3e is now irrelevant to popculture and lacks corporate profitability.

3e died because its players were incapable of evolving. The rest of the world passed them by.

5.14 is exceedingly popular. By many indications, 5.24 is too. But youth doesnt last forever.

The six abilities have deep structural problems. Every proposal, large or small, must run by the gaming community for approval before implementation, such as UA surveys. Nevertheless, the six abilities require rethinking to resolve their systemic difficulties.

If we can evolve, we dont need to die.

There are so many leaps to conclusions here it’s hard to keep count.

 

[Yaarel]

They're not baseline abilities you need to have in every game, but - gosh tootin - they have a place in certain games - but I do not use typical ability score approaches (skill rolls) with them often.

I used Comeliness for nearly 20 years. However, I gave the players the option to pick it. It had utility, but not in the way the other abilities did. It gave me and the player a numeric score that communicated how attractive their PC was in their eyes. It gave them a reminder of what it was so that when a 'first impression' scenario I had an NPC respond to how attractive or unattractive the PC was, the response was expected. In many ways it was no different than the PC describing their character as attractive or unattractive to me during session 0. Most players elected to roll their attractiveness or set it at 10 to 12. I stopped using it in 2020 when I moved to a new region - but that was mostly because I was working with all new players in a new region and was overly cautious about offending people.

Honor was also used as an optional ability score until then. If honor was important to your PC, you also selected where it began - and then I raised it or lowered it based upon your RP. You had to have a personal code to have honor, so it elicited some good Session 0 discussion. It only had impact for 2 homebrew classes that were acceptable at the time in the eyes of my group, but venture too far into stereotyping. I would use it again, but mostly to help players feel accountable for their personal code.

Sanity is 100% in use in my games. However, players are not even told about it. I set a starting sanity based upon their Session 0. Then I raise it or lower it based upon the horrors they experience and the RP decisions they make. Most specifically, when they deal with Aberrations and other influences from the Far Realm and suffer a consequence, such as failing a fear save, it has a chance to push them more mad. The sanity score mostly impacts how I describe a situation to them. The more sane they are, the less terrifying the description. The less sanity they have, the less terror is woven into the description. There are a few mechanical differences for homebrew monsters - (PC rolls a Wisdom Save. If failed, roll on table 1 for Sanity less than 6, table 2 for Sanity 7 to 13, and table 3 for Sanity above 13. Like Comeliness, this is mostly about playing into the decisions the player sets in Session 0 and then using this as shorthand to track how the adventures push them more towards madness. I tend to have a discussion with players that see their sanity dip too much and ask them if they feel their PC would have a reaction to all the horrible things that has taken place to them ... but it is a player decision.

Abilities are bigger than a skill. They represent an assemblage of skills. In that sense, an ability bonus is worth a full feat.

Comeliness is too specific to function as ability that organizes various character features. I prefer Comeliness to mean 'superhuman beauty', magical 'elf shine', or unearthly 'angel'. In this context, it might work as a background feat, maybe with advantage to Persuasion checks, or imposing disadvantage to saves against Charm, while in line of sight. There can be three feats, 'Comely', 'Hideous' (magically grotesque to Frighten), and 'Bland' (to avoid notice). Separately, nonmagical beauty might be a Charisma (Performance) check to groom and dress well, and maybe a Constitution (Performance) check to be physically fit. Of course stunning beauty exists, but it seems subjective and difficult to quantify as a metric.

Sanity is redundant. The Wisdom ability = Sanity. A horror genre setting could feature ability damage that reduces Wisdom. This parallels effects that reduce Strength or Intelligence.

Honor is something like Charisma (History), akin to politics.

 

[Yaarel]

If it were me I'd start with no abilities and focus on skills, but that's just me. I think the ttrpg that eventually topples D&D will be a different kind of experience from what we're doing right now.

Any game that resembles D&D, D&D maintains dominance over it. Only niche games within the D&D framework succeed. Hypothetically, if something would 'topple' D&D in the future, it would likely be completely different.


Regarding a focus on skills. I feel 5e does skills optimally. A relatively small and manageable list of broad skills. Plus specialization via tools and similar options. Plus expertise and advantage to represent excellence. I might want to tweak certain skills like deleting Acrobatics and having Athletics cover it. But the system looks solid.