What does it take for an RPG to die?

[numtini]

This? Or something else?

Nope, Knights And Berserkers And Legerdemain. A game with absolutely nothing to recommend it that's been out of print for 40 years. I am not sure if that or the two Islandia scenarios by The Companions are the rarest things I own.

 

[chuckdee]

Nope, Knights And Berserkers And Legerdemain. A game with absolutely nothing to recommend it that's been out of print for 40 years. I am not sure if that or the two Islandia scenarios by The Companions are the rarest things I own.

Hey, me and my group played and ongoing game of World of Synnibarr. We had fun in spite of the game system, not because of it!

 

[aramis erak]

I would argue that MERP and Star Wars WEG are dead games: the publishers have ceased to exist and/or lost the license, and the current IP licensees do not have IP for the original games.

WEG's Star Wars IP is all owned by LFL, which is now owned by Disney. And Disney let FFG rerelease WEG 1e core & sourcebook.
So, WEG's comatose.

I agree with with your bolded part -- they're definitely dead as commercial products. Without that disclaimer, though, I definitely don't believe either game is dead in any meaningful sense.

PretzelBoy is flat out wrong about the IP ownership...
MERP:

WEG SW 1e:

EN Judge Dredd

(Fair Use/Fair Dealing exception for educational purpose asserted)
Most licensed games' copyrights work the same way... the licensee has to hand over ownership of the generated properties.
Some of the contracts prohibit post-license republishing by either party, others don't bar republishing the licensed game, but the IP of the licensed game is almost always now property of the licensor.

Not being privy to the actual contracts for the above 3, but having seen info on two of them - WEG's rules, having gone open license, were not seen as any impediment to the reprint. It was mostly getting access to the files, and permission from LFL/Disney.
With MERP, the issue is that MERP added way too much, wasn't a good fit as a game, and while it sold a lot, it was not played much.
Also with MERP, there's a retroclone that looks pretty good (if you like RM/SM/MERP/HARP mechanics, which I kind of do...): Against the Darkmaster.

More to the point, a game being considered dead or not makes zero difference to me, so if people want to define a game as being dead at a particular point, I guess they can, but I find the distinction meaningless.

It will if your players want corebooks.

 

[aramis erak]

This thread led to me googling Fudge last night. Is this thread a secret Game Necromancer's plot?

Steffan O'Sullivan uses FUDGE for his game designs; most recently that I noticed, Princess Bride RPG in 2019. Which made it a hard-pass for me. I first encountered FUDGE as a download in LaTex format...

 

[SableWyvern]

It will if your players want corebooks.

I stand by my statement. It doesn't matter to me.

 

[soviet]

With MERP, the issue is that MERP added way too much, wasn't a good fit as a game, and while it sold a lot, it was not played much.

Three false statements.

Yes they added a lot of extra material to the setting but they kept this going without issue for 15 years. I don't believe it has anything to do with losing the licence, which was ultimately to do with the licence holders seeking to make more money off the pending increase in value due to the films.

The MERP system (and Rolemaster, which many people also used with the MERP modules) does a very good job of portraying a gritty, realistic, deadly adventure game. Combined with the depth and detail of the modules it is excellent for playing out a game of low level adventurers exploring the setting of Middle-earth. I agree that it's not a great fit for playing as the Fellowship of the Ring Defeating Sauron in an Epic Quest (you want something more modern and story-gamey for that) but it is a great fit for playing Plucky Adventurer Dudes Poking Round in the Ruins and Wild Places of Middle-earth.

I don't know on what basis you claim it sold well but wasn't played. I found and briefly joined a group playing MERP local to me at the time and I knew several other people at uni and similar who had played it. It was a popular game.

 

[soviet]

No game is 'dead' as long as it's alive for someone, IMO. Now, it might be little heard of or very hard to obtain, but the thing about this particular medium is that it doesn't take much for a game to be played and enjoyed.

I GMed some WFRP 1e two years ago and still plan to run a continuation in the near future. I GMed some MERP/RM2 a couple of years before that and still plan to return to it some day. I also ran AD&D second edition a few years before that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Three false statements.

Yes they added a lot of extra material to the setting but they kept this going without issue for 15 years. I don't believe it has anything to do with losing the licence, which was ultimately to do with the licence holders seeking to make more money off the pending increase in value due to the films.

The MERP system (and Rolemaster, which many people also used with the MERP modules) does a very good job of portraying a gritty, realistic, deadly adventure game. Combined with the depth and detail of the modules it is excellent for playing out a game of low level adventurers exploring the setting of Middle-earth. I agree that it's not a great fit for playing as the Fellowship of the Ring Defeating Sauron in an Epic Quest (you want something more modern and story-gamey for that) but it is a great fit for playing Plucky Adventurer Dudes Poking Round in the Ruins and Wild Places of Middle-earth.

I don't know on what basis you claim it sold well but wasn't played. I found and briefly joined a group playing MERP local to me at the time and I knew several other people at uni and similar who had played it. It was a popular game.

MERP was the first non-D&D RPG I ever owned. I still have my copy from back then!

 

[soviet]

MERP was the first non-D&D RPG I ever owned. I still have my copy from back then!

I still remember how I discovered RM. A school friend I'd played D&D with called me up out of the blue and told me all about this amazing game called Rolemaster and did I want to buy his copy (the three RM2 corebooks). In retrospect it was like a hard sell to get rid of a game he didn't like (or perhaps he just needed some cash) but I was genuinely completely sold and fell in love with the game. I have almost all of the RM2 and MERP books, some bought at the time and some acquired later on. Still a game I love.

 

[SableWyvern]

MERP was the first non-D&D RPG I ever owned. I still have my copy from back then!

We pottered around with red box BECMI a tiny bit. Then I bought a friend's older brother's copy of MERP and started running it on my 13th birthday. Cue ten years of consistently running MERP and RM. While I've branched out a lot more since then, I always go back to RM; my next campaign is likely to be Rolemaster set in the first edition Savage Frontier for Forgotten Realms.