Do you have total control over your own thoughts and actions? Do you always succeed at the things you want to succeed at and fail at the things you want to fail at? Do you only feel fear when you wish to, and never when you do not wish to?
Because by the standard you're articulating here, most human beings rarely if ever have agency. Anyone with a phobia, for example, simply does not and cannot have agency, because they don't get a choice, they feel the fear and it can be crippling. I, personally, have phobias of spiders and of falling; I don't mind being in high places, even ones where I can see how high up I am, but I am deathly afraid of falling, and will outright panic if I suddenly realize that the protections against falling are inadequate to actually prevent a fall. Does this mean I as a human being can't actually express agency because I don't have control over this? What about (say) someone with clinical depression, or ADHD, or (etc., etc.)?
D&D doesn't have disadvantages that one can pick. Therefore, any such things are RP only.
GURPS does. In GURPS, the player chooses to have the disadvantage. In GURPS 4e, most of these disadvantages come with control numbers. You choose 6, 9, 12, or 15--the lower the number, the more points the disadvantage grants. Then, when you encounter the trigger, you have to roll under that number or succumb.
But note those two uses of the word choose. The player consents to having those disadvantages, and by doing so, they get a benefit: more points with which to build their character.
And this isn't even getting into, as previously noted, things in D&D which defy this description and have for ages. Dragons of sufficient age have a nonmagical, entirely natural (in 3.x, "Extraordinary", which is explicitly not supernatural) "Frightful Presence" which (a) induces a roll (a Will saving throws), and (b) forces the character to be frightened if that roll fails. In other words, for more than 25 years, D&D has had exactly the thing you claim destroys agency, a forced roll which induces a mental state. And as I have said before, 5e continues this tradition, as the completely mundane Spinosaurus Dinosaur has Frightful Presence, and the the equally mundane Battle Master being able to use Goading Attack or Menacing Attack, and nothing prevents an NPC from being constructed so (in fact, many fans have poo-poohed the separation of NPC abilities from PC ones!) Or if using the Battle Master as an example doesn't work for you, the "Warlord" creature (which can be "any humanoid") from VGM and MPMM has a Legendary Action that forces a DC 16 Wis save or else the target is frightened until the end of the Warlord's next turn.
So in 5e, only dragons of Adult or older can cause fear. In 2e and 3e, even Young Adults could cause fear. Now, I can't recall if dragons in 3e and 5e are given actual sizes in terms of feet/meters, but in 2e, a Young Adult white dragon--the smallest chromatic dragon--is on average 69 feet long (including tail) and an Adult white dragon is on average 86 feet long.
A spinosaurus, in real life, is over 40 feet long (paleontologists disagree on the exact measurements), with five-inch teeth (not including the root).
(From Wikipedia. Remember that a Young Adult white dragon is half again as large, and an Adult is twice as large.
So, what exactly is different here? D&D still allows entirely mundane creatures or effects to strike fear into the hearts of PCs, if they fail a roll to resist it. What makes this different from the things @pemerton has described? Why is what D&D does, and has done for two and a half decades, acceptable, while BW is unacceptable? Per your own descriptions, D&D takes away your agency just as much as BW does!
On the one hand, we have some extremely large, often hungry carnivores, both of which are large enough to eat you in one, maybe two bites, and one of which is actively malicious in nature.
On the other hand, we have normal people doing things that make sense to their character.
I think I see a bit of a difference between those two things.
I thought you liked realistic worlds? Sometimes people don't have the gear that they turn out to need. Like one time I was cycling home, and my tyre punctured, and I didn't have a repair kit on me (I'd used my last patch with my last puncture). Maybe that's unrealistic to you, I don't know, but it's a thing that actually happened to me.
In the game you're asking about, as I've explained already upthread, Tru-leigh was trying to get to the tower to take Joachim to his master. But the assassin beat him there and decapitated Joachim. The need to collect the blood arose unexpectedly.
Why are the norms of your RPGing "common sense"? I mean, if I told you it's common sense that if something is at stake, then the dice should be rolled, you'd be all up in my grille about presenting some subjective preference as if it was objective.
I've stated the rules and principles of the game endlessly, and linked to the free rules multiple times, and so I'm not going to repeat it here. You can read one of the more recent accounts here if you want: D&D General - [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.
So, if we are going to talk about Burning Wheel in terms of its play norms, we would not discuss the fitness of its rules to the situation, but the fitness of the situation to its structure of play. Because if we assume based on established fiction and our sense of what is plausible that the player character should have access to a vessel than the situation that is framed should be different. Not the execution of the rules.
It's "was that a good frame?" because the principles of play would have mandated a different scene frame if we assume that evaluation of the facts. Evaluating an episode of play is if Burning Wheel were a refereed game misses the point of what it is trying to accomplish.
If you do not like its play conventions that's fine, but evaluating its mechanics through the prism of D&D style play conventions is not really helpful at determining anything other than it's not a good fit for them which should be obvious.
Just to be clear - are you saying that imaginary things (like the Elven Lady Galadriel, or the Easter Bunny, or the Millenium Falcon) have real causal effects in the world?
The meta is that when the player defines those things about their character they are doing so with the up-front expectation that the GM will incorporate those things into the game, because that's what the rules say. The rules give the player that meta-agency.
If my character's goal-belief-equivalent is "I will avenge the death of my brother even if it costs me my life" and the GM is expected to work that in somehow then I-as-player have meta-directed play in quite a different direction than if my goal is "I will ascend the throne of Althasia as king before my 35th birthday".
For me, it's better if the DM just plays the world as it is without regard to what characters we have or what their goals are, and let us as players work our own goals in to play as best we can (or can't, there's no guarantee our goals are achievable or even start-able e.g. if I'm a simple baker's assistant with some thieving skills then even though I declare my goal is to ascend the throne of Althasia my odds of ever getting anywhere near that throne are, realistically, zero).
Answered just above.
The other thing worth noting is that all this stuff about goals-beliefs-etc. being central to play seems to assume the character will survive long enough for any of it to become relevant, which is by no means guaranteed in the games I'm used to.
But, I don't believe any GM does, or can do, this "plays the world without regard..." thing. No such possibility exists. And before you go getting your dander up, this is not a judgement on said people. It's an assessment formed out of tens of thousands of hours of play and related activity. No objective world exists and no process exists to say what such a thing would be. Your technique and my technique produce exactly equivalent things, some fiction that facilitates and forms a part of RPG play.
So, if we are going to talk about Burning Wheel in terms of its play norms, we would not discuss the fitness of its rules to the situation, but the fitness of the situation to its structure of play. Because if we assume based on established fiction and our sense of what is plausible that the player character should have access to a vessel than the situation that is framed should be different. Not the execution of the rules.
It's "was that a good frame?" because the principles of play would have mandated a different scene frame if we assume that evaluation of the facts. Evaluating an episode of play is if Burning Wheel were a refereed game misses the point of what it is trying to accomplish.
If you do not like its play conventions that's fine, but evaluating its mechanics through the prism of D&D style play conventions is not really helpful at determining anything other than it's not a good fit for them which should be obvious.
I didn't describe any vessels as being present. Was that a good frame? Well, the player had no trouble at all declaring an action, "I look around for a vessel!" (I think he found the idea of collecting "sacred" blood in a chamber pot amusing or at least ironic.) As I already posted upthread, I've recently seen a TV show - Merlin - where a very similar scene happens (an antidote is spilled as it needs to be administered, and so the character looks around for a way to sponge the liquid off the floor and administer by squeezing it into the mouth of the person who needs it).
So my friend (Tru-leight's player) and I are not the only ones ever to think that this frame is an interesting one.
When I say “not deciding outcomes on the fly,” I mean that I’m not relying on anything other than established details, notes, maps, keys, timelines, or logical consequences that follow from the current state of the world. If something was left open, like what’s happened to a town since the players last visited, or whether a new danger has emerged, I look at what’s already been established. That includes what the players did last time, what relevant NPCs or factions were doing, and what larger world events might be affecting the area.
Sometimes that means referencing keyed maps, faction notes, or timelines I’ve already prepped. Other times it means I have to generate new material because the situation now requires more detail than it did before. Maybe a new NPC becomes important because of player action. Maybe a region that was just a name on the map now needs landmarks, rulers, or conflict. When that happens, I create those details in a way that fits with what has already been established and what makes sense in terms of the campaign.
These details often involve the use of a variety of random generators, the most useful of which I have encoded as part of my Inspiration Pad Pro Setup, like this one, which I use to generate word salads based on personality traits to figure out a given NPC's personality.
I record those outcomes so they become part of the persistent world, starting as rough Mnemonics that I will eventually polish. It’s a blend of structured prep and procedural extrapolation. But the key idea is this: once something becomes true in the world, I treat it as if it’s real and unfolding. That’s what keeps the setting consistent and gives player decisions real weight.
Where player goals come into play is in determining what parts of the world get developed next. I often use the example of walking through Manhattan. There may be hundreds of things happening around me, but I only pay attention to a few, like finding a game store. Similarly, if a party made up mostly of Thothian mages arrives in the City of Northport, then in addition to covering general city details, I’ll focus on fleshing out how magical society functions there, assuming it exists. Their goals steer the spotlight, but the world remains grounded in its own continuity.
Northport was founded 190 years ago by Joseph Falkor (see Falktor’s Tor, Terrain, 2836), who built a fort on Highhill where the castle now stands. The fort expanded into a keep and later a castle as scouts, traders, and knights from the Grand Kingdom arrived to explore, trade, and conquer. Northport is now the largest city in the Northern Marches, the busiest trade hub, and the seat of the Dukes of Northport.
The Brambles which is a tangle of tenement and cheap shop taking up the southeast quarter of the city.
Saint Edmunds which occupies the southwest quarter and solidly middle class properous district dominated by the clergy of Saint Edumunds Cathedral the temple of Veritas the High Lord the God of Truth
Bayside one the westside of Northport dominated by sailors, teamsters, and merchants brining in food and supplies coming in from the western docks.
Falkor's Landing the commercial heart of Northport centered around Horizon Seeker Market
Seaside which lies next to the northern docks where much of the mercantile trade of Northport flows into and out of.
Highhills which has Castle Northport and the Ducal Palace along with the homes of the rich and wealthy. Along with the temple of Delaquain the Goddess of Honor and Justice and patron of knights and nobles.
Other notable locations include The Grove in the northeast corner which contains the Temple of Dannu the goddess of Hearth and Healing whose clerics are found among the poor in the Bramble. Along with a Druid Circle devoted to Silvanus, the Dream Lord of the Forest, with an emissary from the Kingdom of Irminsul, one of the largest Elven Kingdoms.
Prismatic Square which is in the northwest corner of the city next to the The House of the Prismatic Mysteries which is a conclave of mage of the Order of Thoth.
In Northport there are three different thieves Guilds
The Company of Friends
As settlers drifted in from the Grand Kingdom, not all were successful. Two generations ago, Anwald the Shadowcat consolidated control over the Brambles and formed the Company of Friends a thieves guild engaged in prostitution, protection rackets, and petty thievery. The guild is currently control by a five member Council of Brothers led by Delvina Swiftblade.
The Birka Band
A group of Viking smugglers, cutthroats and thieves, centered in Seaside. They specialize in smuggling illicit goods in and out of Northport. Members are often sailors and longshoremn. They are led by a Triumvirate consisting of Harald Stormerson, Vidar Thrymskald, and Yrsa Handless.
Oaken Whisperers
The Toudervo were a group of tribes who lived in the river valley formed by the Water of Boyle. Most of the tribes were either conquered or assimilated into the Duchy of Northport. The Oaken Whisperers were a group of loose bands who raided tribes for cattle and livestock and sold them to the unscrupulous. After the foundation fo the Duchy of Northport they diminished until the City of Northport was founded. Since then they found success as smugglers and information brokers. They found mostly in Bayside and part of St Edmunds.
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The city is divided into several districts. Bayside encompassing the western docks, and Seaside with the northern docks. Highhill contains the castle, the ducal villa, and the homes of the wealthier nobles. Falkor’s Landing is the commercial heart of the city and includes the Horizon Seeker’s Market, named after the ship captained by John Boyle (see Boyle’s Bay, Terrain, 2331). St Edmund’s encompasses the district surrounding the cathedral dedicated to Saint Edmund a champion of Veritas the God of Truth and the High Lord. Built on top of an old marsh, the Brambles is a warren of rickety tenements and home to many of the city’s poor.
The King’s Way is the city's main thoroughfare and runs west to east from the Bayside docks to the East Gate. To the north are the district of Seaside and its docks, Falkor’s Landing, and Highhill. To the south are the districts of Saint Edmunds and the Brambles.
There are two other notable locations in the city. The first is the Prismatic Square which is a maze of colorful stalls with potion brewers, elixir distillers, fortune tellers, and vendors selling magical trinkets selling their services and wares. It is located in the northwest corner of Northport between the Bayside and Seaside districtcs. The square lies next to the House of Prismatic Mysteries the largest conclave of mages belonging to the Order of Thoth in the Northern Marches.
The second is the Grove located in the northeast corner of Northport. It is a small forest located within the city walls just to the east of Highhill. The Temple of Dannu, the goddess of healing lies next to the southern entrance. The grove is maintained by druids belonging to the Trehaen, an order of allied Druids, Rangers, and Clerics of the forest god, Silvanus. Also inside the Grove is an embassy of the Elves of the Kingdom of Irnminsul. Duke Duncan of Northport, and Sir Palgist, the Royal Sheriff, work closely with the Elven Ambassador to counter threats to both kingdoms.
The city government is led by a council of five aldermen each representing a district of the city. The council is lead by a warden appointed by the Duke of Northport. Sir Albert Langston has been warden for over 20 years. He was originally appointed by Angus the Eternal Duke, Duke Duncan’s predecessor and grandfather. Sir Albert has an extensive spy network that
As settlers drifted in from the Grand Kingdom, not all were successful. Two generations ago, Anwald the Shadowcat consolidated control over the Brambles and formed the Company of Friends a thieves guild engaged in prostitution, protection rackets, and petty thievery. The guild is currently controlled by a five member Council of Brothers led by Delvina Swiftblade.
The Birka Gang is a group of Viking smugglers, cutthroats, and thieves centered in Seaside. They specialize in smuggling illicit goods in and out of Northport. Members are often sailors and longshoremen. They are led by a Triumvirate consisting of Harald Stormerson, Vidar Thrymskald, and Yrsa Handless.
The Toudervo were a group of tribes who lived in the river valley formed by the Water of Boyle. Most of the tribes were either conquered or assimilated into the Duchy of Northport. The Oaken Whisperers were a group of loose bands who raided tribes for cattle and livestock and sold them to the unscrupulous. After the foundation of the Duchy of Northport they diminished until the City of Northport was founded. Since then they found success as smugglers and information brokers. They are found mostly in Bayside and parts of St Edmunds.
Bishop Berengar Hollowbrook Bishop of Northport.
And now that the party has moved away from Northport, I have a bunch of rough notes to polish, like this list of randomly generated street vendors in the Horizon Seeker Market.
1. Dara Swiftwind
Specialty: Exotic animals and rare creatures
Description: Dara is a daring merchant who deals in the trade of exotic animals, rare pets, and unusual creatures. She’s known for her ability to acquire the most elusive beasts from distant lands.
2. Fintan Oakenfist
Specialty: Woodcrafts and carpentry supplies
Description: Fintan is a master woodworker who buys and sells high-quality timber, rare woods, and expertly crafted furniture. His stall is always filled with the rich scent of fresh-cut wood and resin.
3. Maeve Silverpurse
Specialty: Luxury goods and fine wares
Description: Maeve deals in luxury items such as perfumes, fine wines, perfumes, and ornate household goods. She has a reputation for catering to Northport’s wealthy elite and always has an eye for rare and beautiful things.
4. Orlaith Windwhisper
Specialty: Curiosities and enchanted trinkets
Description: Orlaith is a mysterious merchant who deals in oddities, curiosities, and minor magical items. Her booth is filled with strange and unusual artifacts, and she’s always looking for new wonders to add to her collection.
I appreciate the lengthy response & have a pretty solid grasp of how I think you handle stuff now; but I did want to just slide in and ask: Midkemia? Wow, talk about flashing back to my childhood books there! Is that a setting you built based off the Riftwar works?
GURPS does. In GURPS, the player chooses to have the disadvantage. In GURPS 4e, most of these disadvantages come with control numbers. You choose 6, 9, 12, or 15--the lower the number, the more points the disadvantage grants. Then, when you encounter the trigger, you have to roll under that number or succumb.
But note those two uses of the word choose. The player consents to having those disadvantages, and by doing so, they get a benefit: more points with which to build their character.
