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D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

But if it's so important to them to catch the blood, why don't they have a cup?
I thought you liked realistic worlds? Sometimes people don't have the gear that they turn out to need. Like one time I was cycling home, and my tyre punctured, and I didn't have a repair kit on me (I'd used my last patch with my last puncture). Maybe that's unrealistic to you, I don't know, but it's a thing that actually happened to me.

In the game you're asking about, as I've explained already upthread, Tru-leigh was trying to get to the tower to take Joachim to his master. But the assassin beat him there and decapitated Joachim. The need to collect the blood arose unexpectedly.

You can read a fuller account, if you care to, here: D&D General - [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

And if finding one in the room in questions isn't difficult, why did they have to roll? These are to me common sense questions.
Why are the norms of your RPGing "common sense"? I mean, if I told you it's common sense that if something is at stake, then the dice should be rolled, you'd be all up in my grille about presenting some subjective preference as if it was objective.

I've stated the rules and principles of the game endlessly, and linked to the free rules multiple times, and so I'm not going to repeat it here. You can read one of the more recent accounts here if you want: D&D General - [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

And here's another one: D&D General - [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.
 

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But if it's so important to them to catch the blood, why don't they have a cup?
Because they were chasing some dude to stop him from murdering someone? They weren't expecting that dude to get murdered today? In their rush to, you know, stop a murder they might have overlooked something?

And if finding one in the room in questions isn't difficult, why did they have to roll? These are to me common sense questions.
And again, because your goals are rigorously oriented around "are the rules simulating my expectation of reality", you want the rules to dictate an X% chance of finding a cup in that particular room, and those odds are based entirely on the nature of the room and the character's relative perceptiveness.

Those aren't the goals of Burning Wheel. The goal of Burning Wheel is "This character really wants X to happen. Let's see if it happens!"

I think Burning Wheel is a terrible, terrible fit for your playstyle and you should never, ever play it.

But I have the expectation that you aren't confused by the fact that someone wants something out of play you're not looking for.
 



So, if we are going to talk about Burning Wheel in terms of its play norms, we would not discuss the fitness of its rules to the situation, but the fitness of the situation to its structure of play. Because if we assume based on established fiction and our sense of what is plausible that the player character should have access to a vessel than the situation that is framed should be different. Not the execution of the rules.

It's "was that a good frame?" because the principles of play would have mandated a different scene frame if we assume that evaluation of the facts. Evaluating an episode of play as if Burning Wheel were a refereed game misses the point of what it is trying to accomplish.

If you do not like its play conventions that's fine, but evaluating its mechanics through the prism of D&D style play conventions is not really helpful at determining anything other than it's not a good fit for them which should be obvious.
 
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I don't think anyone is talking past each other at this point; we just have a simple disagreement on what the correct usage of the term is.
I replied to you because Brendan had just said he felt his framing of sandbox play was being diminished, in a discussion with you. That tells me people are still talking past each other, because there hasn’t been a shared understanding of the assumptions behind how agency functions in play. From your posts, it doesn’t seem like you’ve fully understood, or acknowledged if you do, with Brendan’s assumptions on that front.

Unless we surface and acknowledge those assumptions, about the referee’s role, campaign structure, and creative focus, the conversation isn’t going to move forward. It’ll just keep circling with people missing each other’s point.
 

Imagine we were playing together, and I was the GM, and I didn't tell you that I was running the Adventure of the Monster-Filled Cave, just that we were playing a medieval fantasy game. I put forth the hook and you didn't bite. You decided your character would rather go into the Darkleaf Forests than the Monster-Filled Cave. It's how you built your character and their background and personality--their beliefs and instincts, if you will.

And I tell you that the options are the Cave or no game at all. No forests for you.

I'm pretty sure you would consider that to be a bad thing, maybe even bad enough to make you want to leave the game entirely.
What you're describing here strikes me as radically dysfunction. Like, you turned up to play chess, I turned up to play bridge, and for some reason we're incapable of sorting out the confusion via a simple conversation.
How so? Not every GM out there is going to tell the players the name of the adventure they're running, assuming the adventure even has a name in the first place. Nor are GMs going to tell the players the plot of the adventure. Why would they? That would be a spoiler. When I next run my Level Up game, I'm not going to tell my players "you'll need to stop the noble faction that is creating bioweapons that they are first testing on the innocent populace." The players will simply have to learn about the bioweapon and decide if they want to stop them in the first place. I mean, I'm pretty sure they'll want to, since I know what the players and their characters are like, but that's ultimately up to them.
If I want to play a game in which my PC is going to do forest-y adventuring, then I will tell the GM. If the GM ignores that, and presents me with a cave-y scenario, then that is the dysfunction I'm talking about. I mean, just come out and tell me what you want to do.

This whole idea of being coy about the game, of keeping it secret what play is about, is bizarre to me.

If someone tells me that they want me to play a dungeon game, and I don't want to, I'll just politely decline. But to reiterate, when a few years ago I turned up to RPG day and broke out White Plume Mountain, I wasn't railroading anyone. The players rolled their PCs, I read out the (pretty silly) module background, and then we started playing. As I remember it, they got hosed by the induction trap, did OK against some undead in the circumstances, and solved the problem of the frictionless corridor.

That's not a railroad. It was D&D c 1977.
 

Personally I don't think there is one right way to do this. But I tend to think in terms of characters and groups. If I am worried about stuff like political events, or other large scale developments, those are all fine as long as it makes sense (i.e. I wouldn't have my nomadic hordes attack the empire from the west if it was established they were greatly weakened, but I might have them do is if it were established that something else was making them more desperate for survival). And if I did decide this would happen, I either roll out using my simplified mass combat rules or simply ad hoc assign dice pools based on numbers and organization to each side, then roll off (and I would likely ask the players to roll not telling them what it is for). A lot of times for world events I have tables I roll on at the start of each year and just put them on a calendar. And other events might emerge organically as things happen in the campaign.

But most of my stuff is at the martial world level. So if there is an organization growing in the region, and becoming a threat, I'd use my judgement and decide if any of the other sect leaders decide to take action and then what they do about it. I have something called Shake Up tables I would likely use here as well, to kind of automate this process. So at regular intervals I ask players to roll and it indicates change or lack of change in the martial world (things like people leaving one sect to side with another, one sect attacking another, sects forming new alliances, etc). The table is just a tool though so if I have a good handle on events that are happening, I will simply decide what actions sect leaders are taking rather than roll. I am not particularly precious about this though. One thing of note happening each week of play is usually enough

Mostly I am focused on things immediately affecting the party. So if they have done something to cause a problem or attract attention, it is possible npcs or organizations in the setting could be taking action against them, seek to help them, or even seek help with them. If I have an NPC who is antagonistic to the party, I am not thinking in terms of "okay an ambush happens when the party cross through the mountains" I am thinking in terms of what resources that NPC has. Sometimes I even assign the NPC to a person in my gaming circle to run remotely. Once I know the resources, I think in terms of their motives and goals and effectively have them making their moves behind the scenes or no behind the scenes as a live player in the campaign.

So in one of my last campaigns the party crossed a woman name dLady Yang, whose father they had killed while one of the players was working for him (her father was a local bandit leader). Lady Yang was very powerful but wasn't going to go after the party herself as she had lots of important matters to tend to and viewed the grudge as more of an obligation than something she was passionately pursuing. So she hire a bunch of assassins. To figure out what assassins she was hiring, I created some tables for myself (not something I think was necessary but something made this more engaging for me personally as a GM), and this helped determine whether these were singular assassins, groups, and what their levels were. Some people were existing characters in teh setting, some were made as I rolled on the table. So when they were confronted while wandering through a wilderness region int eh south by, Fa Is The Plume Smoking Assassin, it was after she had been tracking them for a time (and to do that I had her make survival rolls to follow leads to find where the party was, then I had her make survival rolls to follow the party, and I gave the party detect rolls to sense her following: I can't remember if they spotted her in advance, but I do remember they spotted many of the assassins Lady Yang sent, who were trailing them. Also if the party had been taking any special efforts to be evasive this would have been considered.

very cool! Thanks for sharing, yeah I can see how that all comes together to give this feeling of a “living world” around them. Love having the players roll on the tables/declaim a degree of decision making there - I do that a lot with my Stonetop game as well.

Your emphasis on factions / allies / resources reminds me a lot of the structure of the Blades faction game as well. Obviously the scope and procedures are different, but I think the core intent and outcomes are likely fairly similar in how they take that starting condition and constantly move it forward. I’d venture your emphasis is a little more on like “world/setting integrity” or something whereas Blades recommends more directly incorporating player actions; but maybe not really - since the starting clocks& faction goals are more “here’s where the players can get involved but the city is grinding away at its own priorities.”
 

That just brings us full circle wherein conventional play is assumed to be worthy of respect and less conventional forms of play must justify themselves in terms of conventional play norms which they do not conform to. That's utter horse hockey.
Never said I don't respect non-traditional play. Just that I don't care for it in general myself. Explaining why seems to always be taken as an insult.
 


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