Yup, we're talking about the same play loop. I wasn't suggesting that everyone should be equally interested in domain or intrigue play. Just that neither runs counter to the core loop, except in ways you mention above that are, no offense, simply a specific version you added for your example. If you think owning a castle means you don't need money I have to wonder if you've ever owned a home? Or restored a classic car? I think that the need for money would very much go up, not down, with the addition of domain play (written well, anyway). You have to maintain and repair things (a constant drain) plus any system worth playing will also give you lots of cool upgrades to buy. The gold for all that isn't going to collect itself! Some versions of domain play might not go that direction (versions where domains always pay for themseleves and then some) but I don't think they'd be as interesting and they certainly wouldn't be written very well for Shadowdark.Since my son decided he needed to wake me up, and I'm not yet ready to jump back into work, lets gaze upon the navel a bit.
First, I'm not against domain play, or urban intrigue, or anything else really that people want to do with Shadowdark, I'm not resistant to the idea, my point was that to me (emphasis on my own view) Shadowdark's core conceits, its gameplay loop, and its tone, are all very intentional.
I've still never sat down and put out my thoughts on SD as a whole, spare time was going against writing my own stuff. So...lets see how far I can get before I'm interrupted.
(Spoilers, I didnt even get to finish that sentence lol)
Frustratingly then, heres the Coles Notes version on how I look at SD, and its appeal to me.
1. The game is realized, immediately. While Casters will gain spells, and there are some Talents which are locked under specific and low odds rolls, for the majority of the players experience, they immediately are the Class in full. There is no 'build'. There is no 'I'll be awesome once I hit level X and my character is online!'
You roll your stats (this is also central but I likely dont have time to go into it all) you pick your class, and you are off and the game is the game.
2. The loop is direct, and simple, because the systems all work together.
A: Why do you adventure? To get loot.
B: Why do you get loot? To party, and level up.
C: You are now out of loot.
D: Return to A.
Thats it, Level 1 to Level 10. You begin the game as your fully realized class, you 'finish' the game as your fully realized class, and you pick up some loot and experiences along the way and these systems work together. Treasure has a purpose, its baked right into the game. That Treasure also has a cost (Gear Slots) which are limited, which ties into the gameplay as well but again I dont have time for a full deconstruction.
So, we then come to where I (again, me personal) do not see Shadowholds, as working with that loop but subverting it or working outside of it.
The A to D loop, assumes you have a need to adventure. You are not some land owner. You do not own a business. You are not for lack of a better term, established.
You are Conan (check out my Barbarian soon once I get the art sent to me!) and just as with many of those types of tales, you start...broke. So..off you go, to take your Treasure.
Once a Shadowhold (and yes thats now what its called) is in play I assume we can all see that the basic driver is gone. You are not broke, you have a Castle that needs to be maintained. Sure maybe you are house poor now, but thats still a different driver, to me.
--
TLDR: I believe that the core SD loop, and the game design are extremely intentional, and clean, and while I have no problem with Shadowholds as the 'End Game' level 10 loop, I do believe its fundamentally different, and communicates a different goal, than the base SD loop.
Now, its off to Real Life BS for the rest of the day.
A system that really hits on resource management and constant costs, like the one in Forbidden Lands frex, would be awesome.
