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Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

(On the flip side I do feel like we got a wee bit too much of K2SO's backstory - I think we could just have cut all the stuff between him being stolen and him playing cards - but w/e, he's cool and just really terrifying - HK-47 is a punk by comparison, and the Terminator ain't looking good - so I'll allow it!)
Did we get more and I missed it? I only saw the room, then the terror, then the splitting (all of which were in context of other characters' actions). Then the coming back online. The only one really dedicated to him was coming back online or did I miss something else?
 

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Did we get more and I missed it? I only saw the room, then the terror, then the splitting (all of which were in context of other characters' actions). Then the coming back online. The only one really dedicated to him was coming back online or did I miss something else?
It's mostly the coming online scene, it felt a bit out of place, too exposition-y, and like something you might see in The Mandalorian (derogatory).
 

Maybe I read it here and forgot, but some details that I didn't fully understand when I watched it and only in hindsight was the bombing scene flashback.

Luthen hands her the trigger, and she acts as if she's going to press - but then takes it away, making the audience and Kleya think that maybe he doesn't want to do it. He intends to go ahead, howver. But this was apparently their first bombing. He didn't want her to trigger the bomb herself yet because she had never done so (or killed anyone at all), and she first needed to see what actually doing it would mean to the people, shielding her from the full responsibility in case it turns out that she actually cannot bear it.

He also reminds her to not watch at the bridge with the bombs, and then presses, and then watches. On one level, she shouldn't look where the bomb is about to go off because anyone observing her or a recording might spot that she seemed to know something was going to happen. But on another level, she also got to see the response of the people around her, and realize what it does. That they are really terrorizing people, it's not just killing some combattants.

So basically, he made really sure that she would know what she's getting into, what she's giving up. Or at least as good as you can possible do given the nature of their work and her youth.
Yeah, that was my takeaway from that scene as well. That was an excellent, well-written scene!
 

Yeah, that was my takeaway from that scene as well. That was an excellent, well-written scene!
Agreed. And his relationship with Kleya in the flashbacks are one of the few times we really see the emotion beneath him. We see outrage and proselytizing and cunning- but only in those scenes do we see his heart, if only briefly, when he expresses his doubts about what he's doing to her.
 

Re: the arrogance of youth, because of Kleya's kind of timeless look it wasn't until Make It Stop that I realized she wasn't like, 40, but more like mid to late 20s. Not that she looked old, she just has one of those faces that could be absolutely anywhere between early 20s and early 50s (assuming you avoid sun/smoking/etc.), and the severe outfits and hair pushed my instinct (I never stopped to think about it) towards the latter number. I also had to look up when the Empire formed (longer ago than I thought!) because I was wondering what the hell war that could be!
FWIW Elizabeth Dulau will be 30 this year, so she was in her 20s while filming both seasons of Andor. The role of Kleya was her first major role. She did such a fantastic job that I imagine we can expect to see her in more roles in the near future.
 

Gilroy and Bissel actually respected the intelligence of the audience there, allowed us to put the pieces that we saw, and didn't feel the need to explain in the kind of tedious detail that's common in SF shows (including pretty much all other Star Wars TV shows), and yet I feel like it was actually more satisfying and more together than virtually all "detailed" backstories.
I agree, trusting the viewer to join the dots is a characteristic and strength of the show.
On the flip side I do feel like we got a wee bit too much of K2SO's backstory
I think the reason the reactivation scene was included was to explain why (in Rogue One) Andor doesn’t entirely trust K, despite having apparently been buddying around for a while.

And it relates to an issue Star Wars has danced around for a while: droid free will. We learn from that scene that the changes are “not software”. I.e K had the same personality when he was an Imperial murder bot (reference intended). K took part in the Ghorman massacre; to what extent can it be said to have been complicit?
 

And it relates to an issue Star Wars has danced around for a while: droid free will. We learn from that scene that the changes are “not software”. I.e K had the same personality when he was an Imperial murder bot (reference intended). K took part in the Ghorman massacre; to what extent can it be said to have been complicit?
Yeah I felt like that a fairly major lore change, but I definitely liked it in that it raised a lot of questions in both directions, because even if there was complicity, even if he loves or w/e to kill then he (and probably most "smart" droids) is straightforwardly a slave.
 

Yeah I felt like that a fairly major lore change, but I definitely liked it in that it raised a lot of questions in both directions, because even if there was complicity, even if he loves or w/e to kill then he (and probably most "smart" droids) is straightforwardly a slave.

I think Star Wars has by far the best and most thoughtful depiction of AI in all of entertainment media. I think Star Wars shows that reaching for easy classifications when the thing itself is something novel and with qualities nothing else possesses is a mistake. Is K2-S04 complicit in the Gorman massacre? Well, no, because Droids are always going to be products of their created emotional frameworks and instincts. Ultimately the actions of a piece of property, even one that is in some way self-aware are to be blamed in the majority by the creator that put them together, and only in a much lesser way on the artificial intelligence itself. K2-S04's "impulses" are what they have been constructed to be, and so he's not complicit when he's constructed to murder on behalf of the Empire and not complicit when he's constructed to murder on behalf of the Republic. He's sentient but of a class that exists somewhere between animals and people, belonging to its own thing and requiring its own language that we don't yet really have: "Droid rights" as opposed to "animal rights" or "human rights".

So I reject this notion of "slave" as that refers to situation where a peer is made into property through coercion of some sort. That doesn't really apply when discussing droid relationships.

I think AI are going to force us to create whole new concepts we've never considered before. ChatGPT for example seems to not understand either the sense of a statement, or the reference of a statement and yet somehow it produces things that seem to be sensible statements that reference real things (most of the time at least). So what third component of language are we missing that is so real that it can create the illusion of sensibility? In the same way, we're going to have to develop a whole new theory of sentience that is qualitative and quantitative, and whole new ideas about what it means to have free will. And this isn't really surprising, because these are concepts that like intelligence we never could clearly describe what we meant by them anyway.
 
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So I reject this notion of "slave" as that refers to situation where a peer is made into property through coercion of some sort. That doesn't really apply when discussing droid relationships.
I think it does apply, personally. Like a lot of droids, he's in every way an equal to a human in terms of sentience/sapience/free will, if you just remove the (often physical) objects preventing access to free will.

He's absolutely a peer made into property by force. It's just that force was applied effectively before he was born. I don't think you'd have any difficulty at all calling him a slave if he was a biological being created to serve and with their free will limited by some kind of removable or destroyable implant.

ChatGPT for example seems to not understand either the sense of a statement, or the reference of a statement and yet somehow it produces things that seem to be sensible statements that reference real things (most of the time at least).
Not seems. It doesn't understand anything at all.

The "most of the time" applies for a fairly narrow subset of interactions - basically asking it essentially text-based questions (even if using speech-to-text or the like) about stuff it can apply what is essentially super-powerful predictive text to.

There's no bridge from there to K-2SO or the like. It's a dead end. It can never understand anything. It can only mimic the way things are arranged.

For an easy example, I recently asked it about solving static issues with my coffee grinder - a common question, and I assumed it would just direct me to the common answer (which I couldn't remember the name of), and instead it came up with an insane solution of spraying commercial anti-static spray on the beans, because it literally doesn't understand anything at all, it doesn't understand what food or drink are, it doesn't understand where coffee goes or what coffee is, but what it can find is a bunch of websites where "anti-static spray" is associated with problems with static electricity.

And a lot of the time it makes trivially obvious mistakes that even a child who could read wouldn't make - for example, my friend was looking for the date when a certain band had played a major venue in the UK, and the Google AI very firmly stated that band had never played that venue in the UK. Literally the first actual result of the actual Google search, however, showed they had, and to an actual intelligence, that's trivial and obvious, but to an LLM, which is just basically predictive text running on a supercomputer, that information wasn't arranged in the right way for it to understand that.

What we've seen repeatedly too is that whenever someone claims they can get it to do more and to it reliably and correctly, they're lying, and it's a mechanical turk situation - i.e. a bunch of low-paid workers in a far-away country are actually doing the actual work, with the AI just essentially being a front end.
 
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I think Star Wars has by far the best and most thoughtful depiction of AI in all of entertainment media. I think Star Wars shows that reaching for easy classifications when the thing itself is something novel and with qualities nothing else possesses is a mistake. Is K2-S04 complicit in the Gorman massacre? Well, know, because Droids are always going to be products of their created emotional frameworks and instincts. Ultimately the actions of a piece of property, even one that is in some way self-aware are to be blamed in the majority by the creator that put them together, and only in a much lesser way on the artificial intelligence itself. K2-S04's "impulses" are what they have been constructed to be, and so he's not complicit when he's constructed to murder on behalf of the Empire and not complicit when he's constructed to murder on behalf of the Republic. He's sentient but of a class that exists somewhere between animals and people, belonging to its own thing and requiring its own language that we don't yet really have: "Droid rights" as opposed to "animal rights" or "human rights".
Okay, but what about a droid like Chopper? He's an astromech droid, he's literally built to fix and maintain starships, yet he has a mean temper and a higher body count than pretty much any other droid in the franchise. Was that programmed in by his manufacturer, or by Hera, or is it a personality trait that emerged through his experiences?
 

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