Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'd say Luthen and Kleya have a father/daughter relationship in which the daughter has long since eclipsed her aging father. She still respects Luthen for showing her the ropes, and Luthen is nominally in charge of their "family business," but Kleya's the one propping up the operation. He's the face of the conspiracy, but she's the one handling all the logistics.

Just compare the number of times Kleya gives Luthen instructions to the number of times Luthen gives Kleya instructions, and you'll see she's the one making most of the decisions. In fact, the one time we see adult Kleya awaiting Luthen's instructions, she's just told him what instructions to give her: "Tell me to shut it down." And even though Luthen's technically in charge, he issues the exact instruction Kleya told him to issue.

Kleya defers to Luthen because he's her father figure and her coconspirator, but by the time Kleya's an adult, I don't think she sees him as a mentor anymore. Their operation has become so far-reaching, of the two of them, only Kleya can follow it anymore. She knows more about what's happening on the ground and she makes all the important decisions.

I just don't feel that quite describes the situation. It's not Kleya that is "on the ground", we never see her outside of Coruscant until Chandrilla. She is the one that's getting intel from the people "on the ground", and relays it to Luthen, who is himself also "on the ground" all over the galaxy. He makes the final decisions, but she ensures that he has the Intel he needs to make them, and of course that often means that her recommendations match his final decision, because they have access to the same Intel and must come to similar conclusions. But he is the final arbiter, to really figure out what aspect they need to prioritize. That is at this point still not up to her.

--

Also, an interesting note. Kleya's final mission in some way mirrors Cassian's mission to save Bix on Ferrix. Except Kleya didn't have an uprising distracting Deidra's "security package". But her "target" isn't intended to get out alive, so I guess more difficult circumstances, easier objective?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But he is the final arbiter, to really figure out what aspect they need to prioritize.

Is he though? I'm not seeing much indication of that in the show, i.e. specifically the "figure out" or "final arbiter" parts - on the contrary it looks like Kleya figures out most of it, and as you say, just reaches the same conclusion as Luthen, who is almost rubber-stamping the decisions at this point. Her backstory also makes it clear she implicitly trusts his character and sincerity, but not so much his decision-making. I feel like you're projecting more of a hierarchical vibe than is actually present textually.

 

[Voadam]

I was expecting Dedra confronting Luthen in the shop to end with a bomb once he lured in the whole ISB strike team. Looking back after the flashback scenes that would have mirrored his first actual strike against the empire, ending as he began once he crossed that first line going from hate to action.

 

[chuckdee]

Is he though? I'm not seeing much indication of that in the show, i.e. specifically the "figure out" or "final arbiter" parts - on the contrary it looks like Kleya figures out most of it, and as you say, just reaches the same conclusion as Luthen, who is almost rubber-stamping the decisions at this point. Her backstory also makes it clear she implicitly trusts his character and sincerity, but not so much his decision-making. I feel like you're projecting more of a hierarchical vibe than is actually present textually.

I think that whole spiel about them losing control indicates that it is a partnership, particularly when she turns it on him that he Ok'd what they did with the listening device. She has the arrogance of youth on her side, while he has the frailties of age. And he very much taught her everything to do with it- it's a partnership- there's no hierarchy in the relationship.

 

[trappedslider]

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think that whole spiel about them losing control indicates that it is a partnership, particularly when she turns it on him that he Ok'd what they did with the listening device. She has the arrogance of youth on her side, while he has the frailties of age. And he very much taught her everything to do with it- it's a partnership- there's no hierarchy in the relationship.

Yeah this sounds right to me.

Re: the arrogance of youth, because of Kleya's kind of timeless look it wasn't until Make It Stop that I realized she wasn't like, 40, but more like mid to late 20s. Not that she looked old, she just has one of those faces that could be absolutely anywhere between early 20s and early 50s (assuming you avoid sun/smoking/etc.), and the severe outfits and hair pushed my instinct (I never stopped to think about it) towards the latter number. I also had to look up when the Empire formed (longer ago than I thought!) because I was wondering what the hell war that could be!

The Young Kleya actress did a damn good job of having the same sort of mien and vibes as grown-up Kleya, very plausible as the same person. But I shouldn't be surprised, because I was thinking "Everyone in this show is so spectacularly well-cast!", including some fairly daring choices, and lo and behold, I finally watched the end credits, and the casting was by, of course:

Nina Gold

Who is, in my experience, the best casting person out there, at if you're shooting in the UK or thereabouts. She almost don't miss - I'd say the one place things didn't seem to work out was Solo, but there was an absolutely nuclear ton of interference from various execs with that movie, and I suspect that includes the terrible casting of a couple of people, particular Solo himself.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The Young Kleya actress did a damn good job of having the same sort of mien and vibes as grown-up Kleya, very plausible as the same person

Surprisingly, she is the one we recognised from elsewhere. She has a fairly large part in the BBC Malory Towers.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Maybe I read it here and forgot, but some details that I didn't fully understand when I watched it and only in hindsight was the bombing scene flashback.

Luthen hands her the trigger, and she acts as if she's going to press - but then takes it away, making the audience and Kleya think that maybe he doesn't want to do it. He intends to go ahead, howver. But this was apparently their first bombing. He didn't want her to trigger the bomb herself yet because she had never done so (or killed anyone at all), and she first needed to see what actually doing it would mean to the people, shielding her from the full responsibility in case it turns out that she actually cannot bear it.

He also reminds her to not watch at the bridge with the bombs, and then presses, and then watches. On one level, she shouldn't look where the bomb is about to go off because anyone observing her or a recording might spot that she seemed to know something was going to happen. But on another level, she also got to see the response of the people around her, and realize what it does. That they are really terrorizing people, it's not just killing some combattants.

So basically, he made really sure that she would know what she's getting into, what she's giving up. Or at least as good as you can possible do given the nature of their work and her youth.

 

[chuckdee]

Re: the arrogance of youth, because of Kleya's kind of timeless look it wasn't until Make It Stop that I realized she wasn't like, 40, but more like mid to late 20s. Not that she looked old, she just has one of those faces that could be absolutely anywhere between early 20s and early 50s (assuming you avoid sun/smoking/etc.), and the severe outfits and hair pushed my instinct (I never stopped to think about it) towards the latter number. I also had to look up when the Empire formed (longer ago than I thought!) because I was wondering what the hell war that could be!

I was wondering if I was the only one, because I never saw it discussed anywhere. I wondered all sorts of things about their relationship, and they were never forthcoming with it until that penultimate episode. And it fit so well with the ambiguous nature of both their identities, summed up into "I'm Luthen and you're Kleya. Everything else is up for grabs."

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Maybe I read it here and forgot, but some details that I didn't fully understand when I watched it and only in hindsight was the bombing scene flashback.

Luthen hands her the trigger, and she acts as if she's going to press - but then takes it away, making the audience and Kleya think that maybe he doesn't want to do it. He intends to go ahead, howver. But this was apparently their first bombing. He didn't want her to trigger the bomb herself yet because she had never done so (or killed anyone at all), and she first needed to see what actually doing it would mean to the people, shielding her from the full responsibility in case it turns out that she actually cannot bear it.

He also reminds her to not watch at the bridge with the bombs, and then presses, and then watches. On one level, she shouldn't look where the bomb is about to go off because anyone observing her or a recording might spot that she seemed to know something was going to happen. But on another level, she also got to see the response of the people around her, and realize what it does. That they are really terrorizing people, it's not just killing some combattants.

So basically, he made really sure that she would know what she's getting into, what she's giving up. Or at least as good as you can possible do given the nature of their work and her youth.

Well-observed particularly re: watching the reactions of others.

Also talking of Luthen and Kleya, I really liked how sparse the storytelling was for the backstory. Gilroy and Bissel actually respected the intelligence of the audience there, allowed us to put the pieces that we saw, and didn't feel the need to explain in the kind of tedious detail that's common in SF shows (including pretty much all other Star Wars TV shows), and yet I feel like it was actually more satisfying and more together than virtually all "detailed" backstories.

(On the flip side I do feel like we got a wee bit too much of K2SO's backstory - I think we could just have cut all the stuff between him being stolen and him playing cards - but w/e, he's cool and just really terrifying - HK-47 is a punk by comparison, and the Terminator ain't looking good - so I'll allow it!)