D&D General The First Demise of TSR: Gygax's Folly

[Dioltach]

Because you are not following the actual timeline. Gygax was removed in 1985. TSR was sold to WOTc in 1997 to avoid bankruptcy. That is 12 years of leadership under Williams with zero involvement of Gygax. The failure of management and the insolvency is due to her poor management. Blame Gygax alll you want but the facts don’t line up.

What I'm not following is your reasoning. You complain about how LW was brought into TSR, then when I point out that it's nothing out of the ordinary you complain that she only managed to keep the company afloat for 12 years after saving it. What does that have to do with how she and Gygax came to do business? Also, what facts don't line up?

 

[michaeljpastor]

Im not personally complaining about that. I had ALOT of the Buck Roger's sets that I no longer have due to moving losses. Probably in the same box as all my Dark Sun stuff.

My Buck Roger's input comes from the Forgotten. Realms panels at Gencon where the devs talked about how much they just didn't want to work on it. They claim there was continual signals the Market Wasn't there for it.

I personally am surprised with all the IP being revived the Dilles haven't capitalized on this.

It's ripe for an Amazon show.

I never understood why the design team wouldn't want to work on a Buck Rogers game, since it's right up their alley of pulp fantasy and sci-fi. So I have to think that it was because of their personal feelings about Lorraine, or something like that. I haven't heard enough from the creatives of the time to know. I think it would have been cool.

 

[michaeljpastor]

Gygax and the Blumes had TSR nearly bankrupt in about 10 years. Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures and Williams' investment provided the capital needed to save the company, plus her wrangling with the banks, which didn't have enough faith in Gygax as CEO. Williams' run lasted a little longer than they managed. She saved the company first, got it back on its feet, then made her own mistakes and eventually ran it into the ground too.

If you don't want to buy the history books, When We Were Wizards is available for free.

I keep hoping that they'll produce a podcast series that continues into the Williams years, since they basically stopped when she ascended to the throne.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

I never understood why the design team wouldn't want to work on a Buck Rogers game

Yep. Beedeebeedeebeedee!

 

[wizard71]

What I'm not following is your reasoning. You complain about how LW was brought into TSR, then when I point out that it's nothing out of the ordinary you complain that she only managed to keep the company afloat for 12 years after saving it. What does that have to do with how she and Gygax came to do business? Also, what facts don't line up?

No, my point is that you ignore the history. She was brought in as an investor yes. She backstabbed Gary by conspiring with the Blumes. They were all terrible at business but Lorraine was more like the Blume brothers. Just an outright bad manager and owner. Gygax at least had the creative spark and saw talent in others. Lorraine did not possess this insight as a manager. She constantly went to management about who to cut and made very bad retention decisions about staff, especially writers who were bringing in money through the novel sales. Weiss and Hickman left TSR for greener pastures.

 

[wizard71]

Have you read any of the recent books on this history?

...Or are you saying you knew her personally and witnessed this mockery?

I have read the recent books and also pat interviews from many people involved. Gary was long fone around 1982 as he was in Hollywood trying to get media deals done. He got the cartoon. The Blumes were involved with day to day operations once their father died. Their father was the main investor and his shares passed to his sons. Lorraine Williams stabbed him in the back. Stop making excuses for her. She had the company for 12 years and totally botched her job. The debt during that 12 years span is owned by her. They had a sweet deal with Random House where they would get advances for their print runs and used that money to fund the next project. The projects didn’t sell and Random House demanded payment for all the stock in their warehouse. That happened under Williams watch. Also the hate-branded idea to upset DC comics by trying to publish D&D comics I house when they were already successful under the DC contract. Yeah, I read a book or two plus interviews over the years. Cite all your proof that my points are invalid if you can. Stop making vague, general points that Gary was a bad manager. Everyone knows that. It does not matter because TSR failed 12 years after deposing him.

 

[PHATsakk43]

She backstabbed Gary by conspiring with the Blumes. They were all terrible at business but Lorraine was more like the Blume brothers.

Lorraine Williams stabbed him in the back. Stop making excuses for her. She had the company for 12 years and totally botched her job.

You should find some grass to touch.

This isn’t this important. We’re discussing a b-list celebrity heiress and a game company founder’s business acumen.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I have read the recent books and also pat interviews from many people involved. Gary was long fone around 1982 as he was in Hollywood trying to get media deals done. He got the cartoon. The Blumes were involved with day to day operations once their father died. Their father was the main investor and his shares passed to his sons. Lorraine Williams stabbed him in the back. Stop making excuses for her. She had the company for 12 years and totally botched her job. The debt during that 12 years span is owned by her. They had a sweet deal with Random House where they would get advances for their print runs and used that money to fund the next project. The projects didn’t sell and Random House demanded payment for all the stock in their warehouse. That happened under Williams watch. Also the hate-branded idea to upset DC comics by trying to publish D&D comics I house when they were already successful under the DC contract. Yeah, I read a book or two plus interviews over the years. Cite all your proof that my points are invalid if you can. Stop making vague, general points that Gary was a bad manager. Everyone knows that. It does not matter because TSR failed 12 years after deposing him.

You keep posting in this thread. Your posts are all about anger and personal opinion. You're passionate about this topic, I get it.

What your passion fails to bring to the table though is substantiation. If you want anyone to take what you're saying seriously, have you considered stuff like... facts? Excerpts from books, or interviews? Something quantifiable or verifiable? You know, like the OP did?

 

[wizard71]

You keep posting in this thread. Your posts are all about anger and personal opinion. You're passionate about this topic, I get it.

What your passion fails to bring to the table though is substantiation. If you want anyone to take what you're saying seriously, have you considered stuff like... facts? Excerpts from books, or interviews? Something quantifiable or verifiable? You know, like the OP did?

What are you even talking about? You ask me to certify facts when you don't post any in your rebuttal makes zero sense. All you can say is see OP. That adds zero to the conversation.

 

[wizard71]

You should find some grass to touch.

This isn’t this important. We’re discussing a b-list celebrity heiress and a game company founder’s business acumen.

It is very important to get the facts correct. Was Gygax a poor manager. Yes. Was Lorraine Williams a worse manager? IMHO, yes. She obviously did not understand the product line, mismanaged it and contributed nothing but cash. The utter failure led to the collapse and near disappearance of the game. Gary at least had the collaborative idea along with Arneson and turned it into the hobby we all enjoy to this day. The books, video games, comics and even the forums here all sprang from his idea. Sorry that it doesn't fit into your notions about Gygax but whatever his flaws he did far more for our industry than Lorraine Williams ever did and I am tired of seeing him dragged through the mud to cover up the flaws of The Blume Brothers, Lorraine Williams, TSR, WOTC, Hasbro and everyone else involved.