D&D (2024) Psionics: What Do You Want?

Kinda. But even more "build a spell".
And subclass let's you use one for free.

I.e.
Base 1d8+Int, spend up to 2 points.
Then make it a cone/line/burst/melee (melee is free to Biomancer)
Then make it shove (free as a Telekinetic)
Them make it fire and increase it 4d10 (free as a Pyrokinetic)

And at higher levels
4d8+Int, spend up to 6 points.
Then make it a cone/line/burst
Then make it shove (free as a Telekinetic)
Then make it fire and increase it 4d10 (free to Pyrokinetic)
Then make it difficult terrain (free as Telekinetic, Concentration)
Then make it blind (Con save, reduced cost for Pyrokinetic).
Sounds good in theory, but that also sounds awfully complex to do at the table each round. Unless you are going to pre build each power, the player must create the effect, calculate the cost, and then resolve the effect (saves, damage, etc). That's a recipe for very long turn just to create a custom fireball...
 

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Then I would argue the issue is overlap in spells and little more.

Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues, and Monks all use the same system--attacking, HP, AC, and movement.
And with the same system they do it all differently. Monks hit a whole lot of times and move around a lot. Rogues hit very few times but REALLY HARD and move around a lot or do it at range. Fighters and Barbarians tend to be the most alike, wading into combat, but where the Fighter often relies on heavy armor and the option of a shield, the Barbarian relies on Rage damage reduction, a d12 hit die, and the biggest weapon they can find.

They all "Move and Hit" in various ways.

Spellcasters all "Move and Cast" in a way that is so similar as to be nearly indistinguishable. Except Wizards don't get Sorcery points and Psions call their Sorcery Points "Energy Dice".
Apart from spells:
Clerics have channel divinity
Druids have wildshape
Warlocks have invocations (although I never like the "spell" ones)
I didn't include Druids, Clerics, or Bards because they do a TON OF OTHER STUFF and not -just- spellcasting, unlike the Psion/Sorcerer/Wizard trifecta.

And while Warlocks are also spellcasters, they at least do it in a different way (Short Rest Casting).

Like... Druids, Clerics, and Bards are characters who cast spells. Psion/Sorcerer/Wizard are Spellcasters. It's practically -all- they do.
But sorcerers and wizards, without spells, have nothing.
Exactly! They need stuff that makes them interesting and unique beyond Spellcasting!

Unfortunately, that ship sailed for Sorcerers and Wizards, and it's about to sail for Psions, too.
So, casters already have different systems. Arguably monks have ki, which offers a lot besides basic attacking like the others, but that's it.
Nah. The spellcasters all do pretty much the same thing. Bards, Clerics, and Druids aren't spellcasters, they just happen to cast spells.
 

And with the same system they do it all differently. Monks hit a whole lot of times and move around a lot. Rogues hit very few times but REALLY HARD and move around a lot or do it at range. Fighters and Barbarians tend to be the most alike, wading into combat, but where the Fighter often relies on heavy armor and the option of a shield, the Barbarian relies on Rage damage reduction, a d12 hit die, and the biggest weapon they can find.

They all "Move and Hit" in various ways.
I guess I'm just looking at "system" as broader than you.

Spellcasters all "Move and Cast" in a way that is so similar as to be nearly indistinguishable. Except Wizards don't get Sorcery points and Psions call their Sorcery Points "Energy Dice".

I didn't include Druids, Clerics, or Bards because they do a TON OF OTHER STUFF and not -just- spellcasting, unlike the Psion/Sorcerer/Wizard trifecta.

And while Warlocks are also spellcasters, they at least do it in a different way (Short Rest Casting).

Like... Druids, Clerics, and Bards are characters who cast spells. Psion/Sorcerer/Wizard are Spellcasters. It's practically -all- they do.
Yes, take away spells and Psion, Sorcerer, Wizard do nothing and have nothing.

Exactly! They need stuff that makes them interesting and unique beyond Spellcasting!
My point, too.

Unfortunately, that ship sailed for Sorcerers and Wizards, and it's about to sail for Psions, too.
Meh... I think we have too much overlap with them, anyway. I guess it begs the question if how you cast a spell, etc. really adds enough flavor to the system to make them feel distinct the way Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, and Rogue do?

On the surface, I don't see it.

Nah. The spellcasters all do pretty much the same thing. Bards, Clerics, and Druids aren't spellcasters, they just happen to cast spells.
I think most people would disgree about Druids, Clerics, and Bards not being spellcasters. They are spellcasters who happen to have extra stuff, not the other way around.
 

I guess I'm just looking at "system" as broader than you.
Yes. You explicitly are. I stated as much.

I was explicit the entire time that I was referring to the differentiation of Martial characters being well represented in their gameplay mechanics while for Spellcasters (And specifically the Psion, Sorcerer, and Wizard) it wasn't really different at all.

They put so much of the focus on the class into the spells that the sorcerer and wizard didn't really have much room to shine and make themselves interesting compared to each other. And now they're just sliding the Psion over next to them with a similar lack of differentiation.

It's annoying, to me.
 

What I was trying to to say is that it feels like the subclasses for the Psion are holding more weight than the wizard or sorcerers. Wizard subclasses to me are rather bare, besides blade singer the old school specialist usually have like 1 ability that really makes a difference, especially since they all get the same spells.

Sorcerers try to do better with the expanded spell list but the subclasses don't feel like they offer much more that really changes the game play. Their spell list is almost as big as the wizards and their subclass usually gives them a modification for 1 spell. When they were looking at tying in specific abilities into their new rage mechanic at higher levels I had hopes but that got dropped.

As far as psions go I really hope they rework disciplines since you need to be spending your dice on your subclass abilities and make the concept of disciplines more like invocations even if they drop them down in number
 

Yes. You explicitly are. I stated as much.
But ultimately they are just hitting and moving, as spellcasters are just casting spells (and moving).

What makes the Monk and Rogue unique are the abilities they have outside of hitting and moving. There isn't a lot of uniqueness to the Fighter and Barbarian outside of those.

Likewise, there isn't much uniquness to the Psion/Sorcerer/Wizard outside of casting spells, but there is uniqueness for the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Warlock even.

So while my view is broader, it still stands.

It is why I've argued Barbarian as a subclass of Fighter works, and why Sorcerer (and even Psion now) would make good subclasses for Wizard. Frankly, I surprised they focused Psion on Intelligence and not Wisdom. The concepts of Insight and Persception seem more meaningful to a "mentally-powered" arcane caster. Just like Charisma (or even Constitution) makes sense for a "channeling-powered" arcane caster. Leaving the wizard as the Intelligence "book-learning-formula-powered" arcane caster.

However, by putting Psion in Intelligence, you are already shifting it to just a "different" Wizard instead of something unique. Obviously it isn't the only issue, just a contributing one since it is there right in your face, so to say.

EDIT: Make some of those shifts and for Pete's sake remove 65% of the spell overlap and things would be better in my opinion.

The question begs: what other things could psion, sorcerer, or wizard do which is NOT casting spells to give them uniqueness on par with the other spellcasting classes?
 

I think I also would like the Psionic to be different thematically and functionally. I mean a instead of spell slots, maybe a points system, maybe with different levels of points instead of a giant pool, maybe separate buckets to apply limits on upper-level abilities, and each sub-class to function differently. Have Psionic abilities and not just port over spells from the various spell casters

A Telepath could fill the leader role, control and coordination the group and/or actively

  • Basic skill always on mind reading
  • The more you read the more likely the subject notices
  • Augment
  • Suggestion
  • Break spell caster’s concentration
  • Inspire ally, give advantage
  • Fortify
  • Resist mental attacks eg fear
  • Aid concentration
  • Leader coordination
  • Allow ally to move to advantageous position
  • Coordinate attacks ( kind of like Prof X)
  • Mentally attack opponents
  • Cause confusion
  • Give disadvantage to attacks
  • Prevent withdrawal
A Telekinetic would use powers to perform a variety of ranged attacks

A Psychic Warrior would be in the front line with Psionic armour and weapons, giving special effects.

A Wild Psion could be a random assortment of the other subclasses, plus the ability to burst with energy with dramatic consequences, high gain, great pain
 

But ultimately they are just hitting and moving, as spellcasters are just casting spells (and moving).
... I don't think you grasp the point I'm making.

The Martials in question move and attack and do so in manners specific to them, with unique mechanics to make them moving and attacking different from each other, whether tactically or in the sheer quantity of their attacks. They are designed, from the ground up, to be good at what they do and to do it in different ways.

Psions, Sorcerers, and Wizards: Don't.

The distinction they get is exclusively in spell availability... and it's not -that- much of a distinction with the amount of heavy overlap.
What makes the Monk and Rogue unique are the abilities they have outside of hitting and moving. There isn't a lot of uniqueness to the Fighter and Barbarian outside of those.
Nah. They are also unique in how they move and attack. Rogues favoring 1 attack per round and either dropping a handful of dice if they hit, or taking the risk for a bonus action off-hand attack if they miss. The Monk throwing off 6 different punches with various riders on half of them and a middle finger for the fun of it as they run away from the rest of the people in the fight...

These things make them distinct from each other even before you get to the noncombat functions. Certainly distinct from Fighters with bonus action disengaging, dashing, or dodging, on pure action economy, alone.

All of that is BEFORE you get into trapfinding or running up walls.

Same thing with Barbarians focusing on a couple of attacks while being a massive slab of meat to tank for the party since enemies have advantage to hit them, always, and they have advantage to hit enemies for crit-fishing purposes and a higher overall chance of landing good solid hits even though they only swing twice. Compared to the fighter swinging four times and often, but not always, relying on heavy armor and a shield for safety... Of course they could also do an Archer build so... even that's got way more variety to it than Sorcerers and Wizards.

And, again, that's before the Barbarian's trapfinding ability. Which, granted, is a lot more "Ow. Found the trap!" than the Rogue's.
Likewise, there isn't much uniquness to the Psion/Sorcerer/Wizard outside of casting spells, but there is uniqueness for the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Warlock even.
This one I'll give you, though, since it is the crux of the problem I'm describing.
So while my view is broader, it still stands.
Your view is fine and dandy? But it doesn't address the issues I'm raising. Just kinda ignores them while vaguely gesturing towards some kind of argument against them.
It is why I've argued Barbarian as a subclass of Fighter works, and why Sorcerer (and even Psion now) would make good subclasses for Wizard. Frankly, I surprised they focused Psion on Intelligence and not Wisdom. The concepts of Insight and Persception seem more meaningful to a "mentally-powered" arcane caster. Just like Charisma (or even Constitution) makes sense for a "channeling-powered" arcane caster. Leaving the wizard as the Intelligence "book-learning-formula-powered" arcane caster.
Personally... I prefer Intelligence. Insight and Investigation are Intelligence rather than Wisdom skills and better fit the idea of a psychic character who can look into someone else's eyes and understand their motivation or their past...

But that's just me.

And yeah, Sorcerer and Psion as subclasses of Wizard would absolutely work. And I'd hate it. But it'd work.
However, by putting Psion in Intelligence, you are already shifting it to just a "different" Wizard instead of something unique. Obviously it isn't the only issue, just a contributing one since it is there right in your face, so to say.
There's only 3 stats to choose from. Int, Wis, or Cha, it's going to be "A 'different' Wizard" or "A 'different' Sorcerer" or whatever. I don't think that particular aspect really matters much, in the end.
EDIT: Make some of those shifts and for Pete's sake remove 65% of the spell overlap and things would be better in my opinion.
Cutting the 5e spell list down by a MASSIVE margin would absolutely be my preferred way of making room in the Sorc/Wiz classes for more class features and some kind of specific identity in how they do magic... But it's not an option. WotC makes too much money on selling new spells that people go crazy over.
The question begs: what other things could psion, sorcerer, or wizard do which is NOT casting spells to give them uniqueness on par with the other spellcasting classes?
Well!

1) Sorcerers could have distinct casting mechanics from Wizards.
Different spell lists with minimal overlap would be HUGE for creating some light between the two. Giving the Sorcerers a Spell Point system with their 'Sorcery Points' for Metamagic folded into that would go a long, LONG, way to making them feel different. Give them spell point per round expenditure limits, recovery mechanics for some portion of their spell points at the end of short rests, etc.

Maybe give them the ability to specifically burn their Hit Dice to recover Spell Points to represent them using their very body as fuel for their magic. Hell, give them the ability to do that as a bonus action when they're out of spell points but they also take damage equal to the spell points gained.

Since they're all so charming, build in some charm/distraction/social mechanics into the class that allow them to manipulate people in a pseudo-magical way.

2) Wizards could be built around Knowing Things.
Not just the "Scholar" function granting extra skill proficiency. But build up some Wizard-Specific DCs to recognize NPC vulnerabilities due to their various studies. How about a mechanic which allows them to mark a specific target for the rest of the party to gain some bonus to attacking or rolling saves or whatever else exists against that ONE GUY. And it's based on a Relevant Knowledge Check with a DC of 10+Proficiency+Cha mod of the target or something similar. Or 10+Deception Mod or something.

Give 'em some abilities related to finding information on characters, quests, and objects through Research or finding weird Academics, Philosophers, or even Conspiracy Theorists to ask them for information.

3) Psions could be built around Vibes and Dice.
Ever heard of Psychometry? It's Object Reading. Make that a class ability for them to touch some ritual dagger and know exactly who it has been used on. Or talk to the "Ghosts" that hang out around people like some Spiritualist doing seances. Allow them to use Insight instead of Investigation to represent them "Feeling what has happened, here" to add to that identity.

Give them dice they roll as part of their casting mechanic either to try and preserve their power or boost it with direct modifiers that get lost or kept after use, depending on the roll. Or structure their powers as Cantrips and give them spell points they can spend to boost those cantrips in various ways like increasing the damage from 1d8 to 3d8 to make the cantrip deal as much damage as a 1st level spell if they spend the number of points required to do so. You could make -all- their casting "Buffed Cantrips" that way and free up lots of space for other aspects of the character class.

Frankly, there's a TON of really great options, out there, to make them all feel different, even if they're just moving and casting a spell.
 

I am not a big psion guy myself, I could take it or leave it.

But for me, you basically have two choices with the Psion:

1) As a subclass of an existing spellcaster
2) As its own class.

And if its going to be its own class compared to the numerous other casters we have, I would prefer that it be notably different than the standard spellcasting. Because if its not....well than I go back to just a subclass.
 

Kinda. But even more "build a spell".
And subclass let's you use one for free.

I.e.
Base 1d8+Int, spend up to 2 points.
Then make it a cone/line/burst/melee (melee is free to Biomancer)
Then make it shove (free as a Telekinetic)
Them make it fire and increase it 4d10 (free as a Pyrokinetic)

And at higher levels
4d8+Int, spend up to 6 points.
Then make it a cone/line/burst
Then make it shove (free as a Telekinetic)
Then make it fire and increase it 4d10 (free to Pyrokinetic)
Then make it difficult terrain (free as Telekinetic, Concentration)
Then make it blind (Con save, reduced cost for Pyrokinetic).
And no one would ever play a sorcerer again.
 

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