D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

So in other words just more "You're wrong but I won't try to explain or understand why you have a mistaken perspective. I'm just going to take offense because you're not using the proper terms."

Then you wonder why we get frustrated with the endless "Narrative games are awesome" that continually pop up.

Maybe try explaining for once? Not just "I explained it 150 pages ago and I'd rather spend my time telling you that you're wrong but not specific examples of how it does work."
Many accounts of some "narrative games" (your term, not mine) have been given in this thread. I've posted a lot about Burning Wheel. I have posted a bit about Apocalypse World and Dungeon World, and so have others (eg @AbdulAlhazred, @Campbell).

BW, AW and DW all share the same basic authority structure as D&D - the GM describes imaginary situations, in which the PCs are present, to the players; the players say what their PCs do; as a result of the PCs doing things, the situation changes or develops in some fashion.

The key technical differences are in the heuristics, principle and rules that guide the participants in what sorts of situations to describe and what sorts of things happen as a result of the PCs' actions. I've explained this in relation to Burning Wheel at length upthread, including in reply to you. Here is it for Apocalypse World (Dungeon World is pretty similar):

*If the players are looking to the GM to see what happens next, the GM says something about what is going on in the fiction. The rulebook calls this the GM making a move; and it provides a list of generally-described moves for the GM to make, the most important feature of which is that "nothing happens" is not on the list.

*When the GM makes a move, it is by default a "soft" move, in the sense of establishing some threat or risk or opportunity or promise, that is pending but not yet realised. This obviously invites the players to have their PCs do something in response.

*When the players have their PCs do something, by default the GM says what happens as a result - either another soft move, or if the PCs' actions don't respond to an earlier soft move, then a "hard" move as the GM brings home the prior threat, risk, opportunity, promise etc.

*However, as an exception to the above, certain player action declarations trigger defined player-side moves (eg if a player has their PC read a charged situation, this triggers the move Read a Sitch). These moves are resolved by a dice roll; each is a little sub-system. (There is a fairly close resemblance here to the various sub-systems for roll resolution in Classic Traveller.) Generally, if the result is 7+ the sub-system rules set out who gets to say what happens next, and what sorts of parameters constrain what they say. (Think of this like reducing a character/creature to zero hp in D&D - this can be narrated as death or as unconsciousness, depending a bit on further features of the situation and a bit on GM or player choice.) If the result is 6 or less then generally the GM is permitted to make a hard move. (I say "generally" because some player-side moves are more specific about what happens on a 6 or less).

*When the GM is making their moves, in addition to the technical structures I've just described, there are a variety of over-arching principles that also apply. These serve a few different purposes - to establish verisimilitude; to keep the focus of the action on the PCs; to encourage the players to bring their PCs thoughts, hopes and "inner lives" to life; and to reinforce that "nothing happens" is not an available GM move.

*The rules also tell the GM how to undertake and structure their prep, with the overarching purpose of prep being to give the GM interesting stuff to say when everyone looks to them and so they have to make a move.​

That's a description of some key technical features of AW. Something that @Campbell has been emphasising is its non-technical differences from some fairly typical D&D play. The GM's principal goal, in presenting situations and narrating consequences, is not to reveal a world or setting or environment to the players. It is, rather, to present risks, threats, opportunities etc that will prompt the players to declare actions for their PCs based on their sense of what their PCs want and feel and hope for when confronted by these risks, threats, opportunities etc.

And the principal goal of a player in AW is not to (i) learn details of the GM' setting so that (ii) they can explore it, or manipulate it, so as to achieve some goal - often wealth and status - for their PC. The player's goal is to be their character, who has personal and often rather intimate hopes and concerns that the circumstances of the apocalypse - both material and social - place under pressure.

I don't think we've had any AW actual play posted in this thread, but I've posted plenty about Alicia and Aedhros and Thoth from Burning Wheel play. If you look at those accounts, you might notice that there is no "adventuring", in the sense of going somewhere strange or unknown on a hunt for loot or a quest to do something-or-other. Aedhros and Alicia find themselves in the underbelly of Hardby, a port town, and rob a tavernkeeper and then a port official's rooms. Then they are taken by Thoth, who is trying to bring the dead back to life as undead; Aedhros helps collect bodies for him, while hoping but failing to reconnect in some fashion with his Elvish heritage.

As I think @Campbell posted not too far upthread, a lot of what some posters in this thread have characterised as "downtime" is, in a game like AW, the focus of play.
 

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Except that nothing is fixed anyway--that's why you roll the dice, to find out what the outcome will be.
Whether that is true or not is irrelevant. @The Firebird was talking about how the mechanic makes them feel. They never claimed that their feeling was or should be universal or was grounded in some objective reality of the situation.

These games rely on our imagination and our feelings. For some people, the mechanics in use affect these things and thus can have an impact on play. Whether or not someone can concoct an argument that suggests our emotional response is not entirely logical, or our issues could theoretically be rationalised away, is beside the point. If a mechanic disrupts someone's suspension of disbelief, telling them they're being illogical isn't likely to change that.
 


Then the next question is, does "nothing happens" clearly make the most sense, or does it seem to because it's what you're used to?
If I'm in a passage that hasn't been disturbed in decades it rather strains credulity that only now does some wandering monster come by when I happen to fail my searching or pick-locks attempt.
If they know they get a choice in the matter, they might be more willing to work against their characters. If they have to worry about a GM laying down the law all the time, they become less willing.
Narrating outcomes is the DM's job, not the players'.
No, I know what you mean. But you're not getting what I'm saying. The players are most likely specifically doing things that are interesting to them. If they literally were planning on opening a tea shop, that would be interesting. Having it simply fail wouldn't be, though. It would just be all their hard work going to ruin.
Welcome to the real world. Just because it's the PCs opening a tea shop doesn't mean it has any greater or lesser chance of succeeding than any other tea shop (though given that most PCs tend to be very wealthy relative to those around them, they're starting from a quite advantagoues position in terms of financing said shop).
That's ridiculous. The PCs are the focus of their stories. It doesn't matter if their stories are not important to the world; they're important, or should be important, to the players. That doesn't make them supers. Even the grittiest story about peasants are focused on the peasants, not the world.
In a story about peasants it's blatantly obvious that the world they live in is bigger than they are, as they're close to if not the smallest of the small. What I'm after is that the sensation of "there's always a bigger fish" be maintained no matter how powerful the PCs eventually become; and oftentimes that bigger fish can be the setting itself.

Also, characters aren't permanent*. They come, they go, they die, they retire, they wander off, and so on. The setting, however, is permanent; and even if they trash it it'll still outlast them all.

* - for that matter, neither are players; they too tend to slowly turn over as the campaign goes on and real life rears its head.
 


I'm not 100% sure if you're identifying "Are you SURE you want to do that?" as a manifestation of GM-driven play. I think it is, and so may be agreeing with you on that.
I identify it as I stated, it is an attempt to protect the players from themselves, especially when they miss the cues that say your choice of combat, or diving into lava et al is an inescapable death sentence in this particular interaction.
 

Then that's not a game where progression is locked behind a single roll.
What the roll locks or unlocks is progression in a different direction and-or with a different purpose.

For example, from my own game:

I wrote (in full near-publishable form) two modules containing a connected string of five discrete adventures. The first of these adventures (an empty villa on a hill) contains two elements: a hidden room with a poetic clue that ties this all together, and a teleport trap that puts whoever goes through it smack into the middle of the next adventure (the dungeons of a Yuan-Ti held castle where they have to fight and-or sneak their way out from the inside).

If they hit the teleporter before finding the clue they might never know why they're doing what they're doing, and having fought their way out of the castle (and eventually learning they're now hundreds of miles from where they started at the villa) they could very well abandon the whole thing. Or, they might carry on and end up doing some or all of the subsequent adventures anyway, again without realizing there's a connection. Or they might learn of the connection in some other way, then have to return to the villa and figure out what they missed.

As DM I'm fine with any of these outcomes, which is partly why I wrote it that way. (in play when I ran this, by sheer luck they did find the clue first)
 


Except that nothing is fixed anyway--that's why you roll the dice, to find out what the outcome will be.
Hmm. The outcome isn't fixed; that's why you roll the dice. But the world is fixed.

I posted a similar example from Blades a month ago. There, the main issue I was raising was that the choices a player makes mean less when the world isn't fixed beforehand, but only decided after the roll, because then the outcome of the roll matters more than the choice itself.

I have the same issue with fail forward kind of things. Fewer aspects of the world being fixed means I'm not playing a game where good choices matter; just one where good rolls do.

Old example for the curious:
The players [are] trying to get past two guards. They are choosing whether to sneak (Prowl, mechanically) or to shoot the guards (Hunt). Suppose they have the same score for each.

They choose to Hunt. They roll one die and get a 4--success with complication. They take down the guards, but the referee decides the shift is about to change, and they only have 5 minutes before the attack is discovered.

The player thinks, hmm, I wonder if sneaking would have been better. But in that case they'd still get a 4--success with a complication. In this case, maybe they sneak past, but it turns out a surprise inspection is happening tonight, and the whole place will be crawling with guards.

Now compare the same in a fixed world approach. No surprise inspection is scheduled. The shift will change in 5 minutes because that's what the DM wrote in their notes.

In this case, shooting the guards is worse than sneaking past them. If I shot them, and then the shift changed and the alarm was raised, I'd think "hmm, maybe I should have approached this by sneaking". Because the world is fixed, that would be a better outcome even on the same roll. Hence, my choice to sneak or hunt matters more.

--

Whether that is true or not is irrelevant. @The Firebird was talking about how the mechanic makes them feel. They never claimed that their feeling was or should be universal or was grounded in some objective reality of the situation.

These games rely on our imagination and our feelings. For some people, the mechanics in use affect these things and thus can have an impact on play. Whether or not someone can concoct an argument that suggests our emotional response is not entirely logical, or our issues could theoretically be rationalised away, is beside the point. If a mechanic disrupts someone's suspension of disbelief, telling them they're being illogical isn't likely to change that.
Yes. My issue with these narrative systems is due to having seen 'behind the screen', as it were. With a fixed world I can believe the Wizard is at work, because I've been in the DMs chair and I know the adjudication can be (reasonably) objective. With narrative games, I've been both a player and a DM, and the more I DMed the system the less interest I had in playing it.
 


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