D&D General Mike Mearls' blog post about RPG generations

I enjoy discourse with you a lot magic sword when it’s specifics you are one of the best on PF2 for example. Though it’s not really a starter to declare larger patterns with a simple “Reddit says”. I’m not picking on you either it’s my entire premise of why I think Metals blog is just off.
Yeah, I really value your input whenever I see it too. My contention in general is more about when we're collectively allowed to make an observation about and where the burden of proof for 'well reddit/enworld/etc is just different' arises.
 

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I enjoy discourse with you a lot magic sword when it’s specifics you are one of the best on PF2 for example. Though it’s not really a starter to declare larger patterns with a simple “Reddit says”. I’m not picking on you either it’s my entire premise of why I think Metals blog is just off.

Its not an invalid point, but at some point you have to decide there's some standard to go on assessing trends. Otherwise you're pretty much stuck with "nobody knows anything".
 

What is a "wave" according to you? I'm not clear what you would classify as a wave.
A wave IMO is a playstyle, culture, or genre of RPG which either dominated the TTRPG discussion, popularized mechanics, lore, or ideology that other RPGs draw from, or set/fathered a trend of new RPGs.
 

I can't ever understand what people want out of their TTRPGs. What they say they want seem to be completely different from what they actually want!

"I want the game to be immersive"
Then you should dress up as your characters.

"I want classes to be different!"
Then take away cantrips from the wizard and make him throw darts!

"I don't want things to be decided by player skill instead of character abilities."
Then challenge the party to a singing contest. Bring a karaoke machine and have them sing right then and there!

"I want an old school style game."
Fine! Go get a d17, d34, and d7.
 

You picked your race, class, kit, etc. And then you had specialty classes like Ninjas, Shaman, and Psions. Then there was Multiclassing and Dualclassing as separate concepts. Then there was 2e Gestalts and other rulesets. And don't forget that class kits tended to get stuff at various levels, which sometimes interacted spectacularly with multiclassing depending on your DM.

Skills and Powers, Combat and Tactics, Spells and Magic,m High Level Campaigns, the aforementioned Complete series, Encyclopedia Magica volumes 1 through 4, Wizard's Spell Compendiums 1 through 4, Priests Spell Compendium 1 through 4. Fighter, Wizard, Priest, and Thief's Player Pack. And then there were all the settings which introduced new character options and design structures and narrative settings to be genre-specific... and also Planescape/Spelljammer so you could take your Dark Sun character to various other worlds. (Not recommended due to power levels, but lots of people did it, anyhow!) Don't forget Diablo 2 introducing new mechanics and the various secondary-progression mechanics designed around fealty to a given organization that you gained as you leveled.

There was a TON of stuff you could get over the course of leveling depending on your specific build. And that was -inside- the lines. That's not including the homebrew stuff that kept getting piled on over the years.

Certainly more toward the end of the AD&D 2e Revised period... but that's just how snowfall works.

And hey. Don't forget WotC making "The Compleat Artificer" for 2e as a 3rd party product. Because 3rd party publishing was a thing at the time. Though mainly it was Mayfair Games, I'll grant you.

Character-Creation-Heavy D&D games were a thing well before 3e.
I'm not really all that familiar with SKills and Powers to be honest. It completely passed me by. But, there's a lot of 2e before that. And things like kits, even though they may have gotten some benefits at higher levels, still didn't give you any real choices. You picked yoru class at 1st level, you picked your kit at 1st level. Once those were chosen, you really didn't have a lot of options. Psions, I suppose had some. Kinda like how wizards could have options through their spells. Multiclassing was done at 1st level and dual classing was so punishing that it was very hard to pull off. ((As in, you pretty much had to cheat at chargen in order to qualify)) Gestalt classes are a 3e thing. Again, nothing you're using as examples are examples of character build as a mini game since 2e just didn't allow you any freedom after 1st level. It really was a 3e thing that added that.
 

I'm not really all that familiar with SKills and Powers to be honest. It completely passed me by. But, there's a lot of 2e before that. And things like kits, even though they may have gotten some benefits at higher levels, still didn't give you any real choices. You picked yoru class at 1st level, you picked your kit at 1st level. Once those were chosen, you really didn't have a lot of options. Psions, I suppose had some. Kinda like how wizards could have options through their spells. Multiclassing was done at 1st level and dual classing was so punishing that it was very hard to pull off. ((As in, you pretty much had to cheat at chargen in order to qualify)) Gestalt classes are a 3e thing. Again, nothing you're using as examples are examples of character build as a mini game since 2e just didn't allow you any freedom after 1st level. It really was a 3e thing that added that.

Yeah, kits generally gave you abilities and hindrances at first level but didn’t progress. I remember most players settled in on having their PCs be a multiclass because it was the only way to provide some variety as you leveled. Skills and Powers came along and while it was interesting, it also took a lot of work to change adventures to adjust for the new PCs they created and we eventually abandoned it, even though we liked the concept.
 

I'm not really all that familiar with SKills and Powers to be honest. It completely passed me by. But, there's a lot of 2e before that. And things like kits, even though they may have gotten some benefits at higher levels, still didn't give you any real choices. You picked yoru class at 1st level, you picked your kit at 1st level. Once those were chosen, you really didn't have a lot of options. Psions, I suppose had some. Kinda like how wizards could have options through their spells. Multiclassing was done at 1st level and dual classing was so punishing that it was very hard to pull off. ((As in, you pretty much had to cheat at chargen in order to qualify)) Gestalt classes are a 3e thing. Again, nothing you're using as examples are examples of character build as a mini game since 2e just didn't allow you any freedom after 1st level. It really was a 3e thing that added that.

Gestalting was a thing people did in 2e. Specifically for multiclassing and grabbing all the benefits from both classes. I remember back in the mid-late nineties doing a "Gestalt" game for Dark Sun where we had the option to roll characters like normal D&D instead of using 4d4+4 but we'd get to pick two classes to gain the best benefits from, in each category.

As far as character choices every level:


... do you mean Skill Points and Feats? 'Cause the Barbarian Class is REALLY straight up linear with no choices whatsoever. You gained new abilities as you went, but you certainly didn't -pick- anything. You could choose to multiclass... but even then you were picking a new class and didn't have choices in the abilities, by and large.

And, still, I would say that was a compilation and continuation of what came, before. Not a brand new invented focus. A progressions of adapting as much of the previous edition as possible into the next edition in order to allow people to recreate their older characters in the newer system, while also adding some new 'neat' features. Like the consolidated leveling chart rather than having different XP threshholds for different classes and class-combo characters.

Order of the Stick tackled the propensity of mid-game upgrading to new systems in the first issue of the comic, after all.


Granted, Burlew didn't do it, again, for 4e and 5e, but that's mostly out of shifting the comic to a 'more serious' continuing story rather than taking pot-shots at system design.
 

To be entirely fair though, prior to 3e, there just wasn't a whole lot of ways to focus on character generation. Look at those books you listed. They have options at chargen and then... nothing. You made a couple of decisions before the first session - race/class - and that was it.

Then look post 3e where you have decision points in chargen nearly every level. So, it is a significant change in the D&D classed realm. Of course, in any proficiency based skill system, like pretty much every other game in existence, it was par for the course. But, because D&D is so big, the idea of "character build" being an invention of 3e has gained so much traction.

You picked your race, class, kit, etc. And then you had specialty classes like Ninjas, Shaman, and Psions. Then there was Multiclassing and Dualclassing as separate concepts. Then there was 2e Gestalts and other rulesets. And don't forget that class kits tended to get stuff at various levels, which sometimes interacted spectacularly with multiclassing depending on your DM.
2E did have a ton of options up front, but I think the line Hussar's drawing that it mostly didn't have decisions as you leveled up is a legit distinction. No feats. No prestige classes. Dual-classing was incredibly restrictive and difficult; I think I saw it used two or three times in total over all the years I played AD&D. When 3E-style multiclassing was introduced it was an explosion of new possibilities. "Character Build" being a thing you plotted out over many levels as opposed to just referring to what you had at first level functionally wasn't a thing before 3E.

AD&D was a new version of D&D that tried to give you as much of everything D&D did as possible with the core rulebooks.... while putting it into a new system. There were also some outright improvements, like making Dwarf a race instead of a class, which made most people happy!
Dwarf was a race, not a class, in OD&D before AD&D. The racial classes didn't come around until 1981 with Moldvay Basic and only ever existed in that offshoot game line. They were a simplification aimed at least in part at younger players.

... do you mean Skill Points and Feats? 'Cause the Barbarian Class is REALLY straight up linear with no choices whatsoever. You gained new abilities as you went, but you certainly didn't -pick- anything. You could choose to multiclass... but even then you were picking a new class and didn't have choices in the abilities, by and large.
Skills, feats, and multiclassing, yeah. Every level you gain in 3E and 5E always gives you at least a couple of choices, which was a distinct change from AD&D. Absolutely, picking up a new class meant a mostly set package of abilities, but every time you leveled up you had the option to add one.
 

2E did have a ton of options up front, but I think the line Hussar's drawing that it mostly didn't have decisions as you leveled up is a legit distinction. No feats. No prestige classes. Dual-classing was incredibly restrictive and difficult; I think I saw it used two or three times in total over all the years I played AD&D. When 3E-style multiclassing was introduced it was an explosion of new possibilities. "Character Build" being a thing you plotted out over many levels as opposed to just referring to what you had at first level functionally wasn't a thing before 3E.
The Bard Prestige Class. They were literally the -origin- of the term Prestige Class.

In AD&D 1e to be a bard you had to hit at -least- 5th level as a fighter, and swap to Rogue before 8th level (so you could be a Fighter 5/Thief 1, or a Fighter 7/Thief 1 but not a Fighter 8/Thief 1). Then you had to get a Druid level before 9th. So you could be a Fighter 7/Thief 1/Druid 1. Or a Fighter 5/Thief 3/Druid 1.

THEN you would become the bard with Druid spells, get limited in weapon proficiencies, gain your poetry, sing to negate sonic attacks, etc.

Also you had to be a Human or Half-Elf with a 15 Str, Dex, Wis, -and- Cha. With at least a 12 Int and 10 Con.

And then in AD&D 2e it was just a whole class. Just like it was in Basic D&D.

So for these classes you -literally- had choices to make for every level after 5th that really had an impact on what your progression was going to be. Then they shifted that away, and sort of brought it back in 3e but you were picking Feats and Multiclassing in a more holistic manner.

It was an improvement on material that had come before, but not a whole cloth invention of something wholly new no one could ever have dreamed of before that point. (And also the Prestige Classes got revamped, too, but still focused on 'you must be a 3rd level x 5th level Y' as a structure)
Dwarf was a race, not a class, in OD&D before AD&D. The racial classes didn't come around until 1981 with Moldvay Basic and only ever existed in that offshoot game line. They were a simplification aimed at least in part at younger players.
Sure. Point is that it happened and 3e went with one version of what came before, not all of them.
Skills, feats, and multiclassing, yeah. Every level you gain in 3E and 5E always gives you at least a couple of choices, which was a distinct change from AD&D. Absolutely, picking up a new class meant a mostly set package of abilities, but every time you leveled up you had the option to add one.
Character Points.

Introduced in Skills and Powers you would gain Character Points every time you gained a level (number determined by your class) which you could use to gain new Weapon Proficiencies for 3-5 points and Nonweapon Proficiencies (skills) for 2 to 5 points.

Could also improve your Proficiency Score itself by a permanent +1 bonus for a single character point.

Points can also be used to gain Racial Traits like an Elf's Infravision for 5-10 points. Or new Class Abilities such as a Paladin's "Lay on Hands" which generally cost 10 points. You could also save some of your racial character points for weapon and nonweapon proficiencies. (Humans got 10 extra character points for Weapon/Nonweapon 'cause they didn't get racial traits)

Priests and Wizards could buy extra spells. Anyone could spend points on extra HP. And could even use Character Points during gameplay to buy extra attempts at picking locks, reroll failed attacks or saves, new proficiency checks, or even reroll damage.

That's right: Character Points also functioned like 5e's Inspiration mechanic.

So... I'll say it, again: 3e was building on what came before it. Refining earlier ideas. Including the idea of making meaningful choices as you gained levels.
 

So for these classes you -literally- had choices to make for every level after 5th that really had an impact on what your progression was going to be. Then they shifted that away, and sort of brought it back in 3e but you were picking Feats and Multiclassing in a more holistic manner.

But the viability of virtually all of those choices come down to whether you rolled up an exceptionally amazing character at first level. Only with that incredibly statted out first level character could you entertain the idea of going down that path of dual classing your way to a bard.

There is also some question whether the original author ever intended anyone to actually become a bard, or whether that entire appendix entry was a long form prank.
 

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