D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Yeah, how someone can read "D&D tries to do too many things to be good at any one of them" as "piss poor" escapes me.

I do think its never even been halfway good at simulationist concerns, but that may be my perception of what doing that looks like. I think its been somewhat better at being a game (though a lot of versions have been too lateweight for me in that area) and trying to support genre and some dramatic tropes.
You'll obviously get no argument from me on that score. :D The truly funny thing is, the whole "D&D is simulationist" schtick only surfaced after 4e. It was an edition warrior dog whistle to try to exclude 4e from the D&D family. That has somehow morphed over the years into this idea that D&D was ever designed with simulation as a priority. It never, ever was.

There's a very good reason why fantasy heartbreakers exist. Most of the time they were in reaction to the fact that D&D was about as far from simulating anything as you could get. Look at the earliest RPG's other than D&D that gained any real traction - Traveler, RIFTS, GURPS, Warhammer Fantasy, Role Master. All of them direct decendents from D&D. All of them with clear sim agendas.
 

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An absolute statblock is universally true. A goblin is this one set of data, always. The abstraction is the one and only abstraction valid for capturing what "a goblin" is. It is absolute.

A relative statblock is...relative. it represents what a goblin means in context.
Solid definitions.

IMO statblocks should always be absolute. The PCs' statblocks are - the players would justifiably howl if their characters' stats suddenly shrank on meeting a foe way above thier pay grade ON TOP of that foe already being beyond them anyway.

Mechanical symmetry (which IMO is non-negotiable) demands the same be true of their foes.
 

Solid definitions.

IMO statblocks should always be absolute. The PCs' statblocks are - the players would justifiably howl if their characters' stats suddenly shrank on meeting a foe way above thier pay grade ON TOP of that foe already being beyond them anyway.

Mechanical symmetry (which IMO is non-negotiable) demands the same be true of their foes.
Your statblock is not absolute in any real way. It changes all the time. There's an entire leveling system that changes your statblock routinely. Never minding things like level drain, magical/mundane enhancements, situational modifiers, etc.

And mechanical symmetry is a myth. It's certainly mythical in AD&D. What is the wisdom score of an orc? How much experience does a dragon have? How, exactly, does an orc suddenly gain a boatload of HP, Strength and attack bonuses the second he becomes a chief? What if that orc chief is young or old? On and on.

Statblocks are an abstraction of a snapshot in time. Your statblock might be X right now, but, tomorrow, it might be Y. And, again, 4e D&D was very clear on the notion that the mechanics were absolutely NOT meant to be used if the PC's were not present. If you're applying cats to minions, that's your fault for not using the system as written or intended.

Never minding that in AD&D, an ogre can have 5 HP. Looks like a minion to me. Let's not forget, as well, that a 1st level fighter can kill an AD&D ogre in one round without too much difficulty. Weapon Specs and a longsword is 28 points of damage in a single round. More than enough to kill most ogres. Add on a percentile strength and now Mr. 1st Level Fighter can quite reasonably kill an ogre in a single round.
 

Solid definitions.

IMO statblocks should always be absolute. The PCs' statblocks are - the players would justifiably howl if their characters' stats suddenly shrank on meeting a foe way above thier pay grade ON TOP of that foe already being beyond them anyway.
The PCs' statblocks are not absolute. They change as the players change them--in the ways they are permitted to do so. Sometimes those changes are diegetic. Often, they are not. We simply handwave away the inconsistencies by admitting that the abstraction is imperfect.

As for the other point here, that it would be unacceptable to change the PCs' statblocks: Of course it would, for gameplay reasons. There is nothing diegetic about not changing the players' statblocks. There is, however, something extremely important in the gameplay, the "ludus" part of the experience, namely that that pulls the rug out from under the player so they can no longer make reasonably-informed, meaningful decisions.

Those statblocks are a necessary input. One of several, to determine what relative thing we are considering. It's not the only one. The rules themselves also provide an input, as do other elements.

Mechanical symmetry (which IMO is non-negotiable) demands the same be true of their foes.
It may be non-negotiable for you, but it is not possible to achieve within the rules of D&D and the other requirements you've placed.

We have to accept at least one of the following:

  • We redesign the game so that it isn't what D&D does anymore, so that perfect mechanical symmetry between PC and monster is possible while still having entirely diegetic processes.
  • We break perfect mechanical symmetry, thus allowing the abstractions (read: NPC statblocks) to change as needed to reflect the new contexts that PCs find themselves in, through diegetic processes.
  • We abandon the requirement of diegetic processes, so that things change simply because the mechanics say they must change within the space of perfect mechanical symmetry.

The first is induced by the fundamental problem of preserving the basal, down-to-the-metal framework of a wargame....where we have changed it so that one side must succeed not just for this battle, but for every battle into perpetuity in order for play to proceed meaningfully. In other words, we have broken the symmetry ourselves by making PCs that must win and win and win and win and win in order for play to proceed, but NPCs that only need to participate once.

D&D, at its very heart of hearts, is designed as an asymmetrical game. It has to be. If it weren't, functionally 100% of campaigns would fall to TPKs. Even if the players have a 95% chance of avoiding a TPK with every "Deadly" battle, characters need at least five "Deadly" encounters in order to gain any given level in 5e, for example. That's roughly 50 battles just to reach level 11, which is (very VERY roughly) the point most campaigns end. That would mean only ~7.7% of all campaigns would actually reach level 11 without a TPK. More than half of campaigns would end by level five. (The first two levels only need ~3 Deadly combats each, so about half of campaigns would collapse by about that point.) And yes, I know you're of the opinion that repeated TPKs shouldn't be a problem for groups, but they demonstrably are and that isn't changing.

The other two points--breaking perfect mechanical symmetry, and abandoning diegetic processes--have their own share of issues, I agree. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to make this choice. But from where I'm sitting, I can't see any other way out. D&D's design, plus the twin requirements of exclusively diegetic processes and perfect player-nonplayer mechanical symmetry, force us into an unwinnable scenario.

We are left with a trilemma. Either we change what D&D is, which no one is willing to do; or we abandon diegesis, which thoroughly offends the simulation fans; or we abandon perfect mechanical symmetry. Something's gotta give--unless you can find a way to square that circle.
 


It's significantly harder to swallow an inconsistent representation of something in the world, because that makes the board state less knowable and harder to learn from.
Apologies only getting to this now.
I get that, but also in a game which starts using minion ogres they become common place as opposed to ogres you encounter when you're 5th level. i.e. the board states changes as your character progresses in levels and you adapt to the new difficulty.

Anyways, that is my thinking. I'm happy to leave it there.
 

I meant in general, not specifically you. A lot of people here use derogatory terms for our style of play. "Play to find out what's in the DM's notes." "Traditional play is a railroad." " And more. Seems like most of the terms folks that prefer narrative play use to describe traditional play are derogatory.

Besides, "quantum" wasn't used in any sort of negative manner by us. We even acknowledged that some of what we do is also "quantum."

I think quantum was negative by us. While we ultimately recognized some aspects of d&d as possessing that quality as well, we doubled down on there being something we intensely disliked, some subset of quantum that we were trying to describe by quantum.
 

The PCs' statblocks are not absolute. They change as the players change them--in the ways they are permitted to do so. Sometimes those changes are diegetic. Often, they are not. We simply handwave away the inconsistencies by admitting that the abstraction is imperfect.

As for the other point here, that it would be unacceptable to change the PCs' statblocks: Of course it would, for gameplay reasons. There is nothing diegetic about not changing the players' statblocks. There is, however, something extremely important in the gameplay, the "ludus" part of the experience, namely that that pulls the rug out from under the player so they can no longer make reasonably-informed, meaningful decisions.

Those statblocks are a necessary input. One of several, to determine what relative thing we are considering. It's not the only one. The rules themselves also provide an input, as do other elements.


It may be non-negotiable for you, but it is not possible to achieve within the rules of D&D and the other requirements you've placed.

We have to accept at least one of the following:

  • We redesign the game so that it isn't what D&D does anymore, so that perfect mechanical symmetry between PC and monster is possible while still having entirely diegetic processes.
  • We break perfect mechanical symmetry, thus allowing the abstractions (read: NPC statblocks) to change as needed to reflect the new contexts that PCs find themselves in, through diegetic processes.
  • We abandon the requirement of diegetic processes, so that things change simply because the mechanics say they must change within the space of perfect mechanical symmetry.

The first is induced by the fundamental problem of preserving the basal, down-to-the-metal framework of a wargame....where we have changed it so that one side must succeed not just for this battle, but for every battle into perpetuity in order for play to proceed meaningfully. In other words, we have broken the symmetry ourselves by making PCs that must win and win and win and win and win in order for play to proceed, but NPCs that only need to participate once.

D&D, at its very heart of hearts, is designed as an asymmetrical game. It has to be. If it weren't, functionally 100% of campaigns would fall to TPKs. Even if the players have a 95% chance of avoiding a TPK with every "Deadly" battle, characters need at least five "Deadly" encounters in order to gain any given level in 5e, for example. That's roughly 50 battles just to reach level 11, which is (very VERY roughly) the point most campaigns end. That would mean only ~7.7% of all campaigns would actually reach level 11 without a TPK. More than half of campaigns would end by level five. (The first two levels only need ~3 Deadly combats each, so about half of campaigns would collapse by about that point.) And yes, I know you're of the opinion that repeated TPKs shouldn't be a problem for groups, but they demonstrably are and that isn't changing.

The other two points--breaking perfect mechanical symmetry, and abandoning diegetic processes--have their own share of issues, I agree. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to make this choice. But from where I'm sitting, I can't see any other way out. D&D's design, plus the twin requirements of exclusively diegetic processes and perfect player-nonplayer mechanical symmetry, force us into an unwinnable scenario.

We are left with a trilemma. Either we change what D&D is, which no one is willing to do; or we abandon diegesis, which thoroughly offends the simulation fans; or we abandon perfect mechanical symmetry. Something's gotta give--unless you can find a way to square that circle.
I seriously do not see the trilemma here. In particular, how do you envision abandoning/achieving mechanical symmetry while preserving being D&D? I would think mechanics were quite defining for whether it could be considered D&D.

And making things diegetic appear easily done in theory by tearing down the fourth wall if we are desperate for it, while I would still consider it D&D and without me seeing how that can change the state of mechanical symmetry.

In my mind at least on the skirmish level mechanical symmetry is a core foundation. 3ed took it a bit far IMO with creatures being represented as richly as PCs, but all editions have had PCs and NPCs have the same basic values fueling into the skirmish resolution - and that these values are not context dependent for either side.

I read @Lanefan's mechanical symmetry to refer to this aspect. Tough I wonder what their thoughts are regarding the morale mechanics of older D&D edition in this regard?

I also would argue that it could be easy to make a shrinking stat block diegetic by for instance flavoring the PCs rise to power as them draining the world for some essential limited life resource effectively weakening everyone else around them. That seem still to be D&D, still being diegetic, still having the same level of core mechanical symmetry, but a shrinking stat block on creatures they meet.

So I really do not see the trillemma at all, nor how it is relevant to the contextual stat block issue..
 

I seriously do not see the trilemma here. In particular, how do you envision abandoning/achieving mechanical symmetry while preserving being D&D? I would think mechanics were quite defining for whether it could be considered D&D.
Given this is precisely what 4e did, are you asserting 4e is not D&D?
 

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