Different philosophies concerning Rules Heavy and Rule Light RPGs.

[chuckdee]

Yes, I agree. Steal isn't the best word choice! I should have said learn or inspire.

Oh I don't think its just you. We say steal in common parlance- I never really thought about the other connotations and how they might be conflated until this conversation.

 

[chuckdee]

Rolemaster looks like a 4 until you start play, where you realize only CGen is Rules Medium Heavy, and actual play is 2.

Thank you for this. I try to tell people that, and it seems to go over heads all the time. CGen, and to an extent leveling are the only player facing things that are intensive. And we even made it simpler by not training in advance.

 

[aramis erak]

Designers steal ideas? Openly? Umm where do I begin? I mean to some degree it falls in a legal "recipe copyright" zone...That I understand, and as someone who has copyright in multiple countries, I can say that openly admitting to stealing other peoples IP is an unwise move.

In the US, it's blackletter law (that is, explicit in the text of the law) that the rules of a game cannot be copyright protected. It is also blackletter that the explicit wording is only protected if it can be paraphrased, tho' that's a very rough summary of a MUCH longer passage.

So, mentioning one's sources is not taboo here. It's often beneficial to sales.

 

[gban007]

Feels to me if can't use prior work as inspiration, then presumably a new moral rpg would not have:

Classes
Levels
6 attributes
A percentile roll under type system
A d20 resolution system
A 2d20 or 2d6 resolution system
Advantage/ disadvantage
Feats
Metacurrencies

And a whole list more.

And I certainly think there are games coming out like that (the new Discworld rpg comesnto mind) but I feel a lot may be taking for granted in this idea of not using other systems for inspiration of what would be left to use.

 

[1QD]

Regarding “stealing ideas” in the art space reminds me of Jules Feiffer talking about swiping in the newspaper comic days.

Sheldon Moldoff's Hawkman and the art of the swipe

Sheldon Moldoff came on the comics scene at the very beginning of the Golden Age of comics. He quickly became a hot young artist at Nati...

thegreatcomicbookheroes.blogspot.com

On the post you made there is a comment about swiping with permission.

 

[1QD]

Regarding “stealing ideas” in the art space reminds me of Jules Feiffer talking about swiping in the newspaper comic days.

Sheldon Moldoff's Hawkman and the art of the swipe

Sheldon Moldoff came on the comics scene at the very beginning of the Golden Age of comics. He quickly became a hot young artist at Nati...

thegreatcomicbookheroes.blogspot.com

On the post you made there is a comment about swiping with permission.

I put steal in quotes for a reason, as it's not literally stealing games. Designers, of course, learn from each other. For example:
1. Using skills as less concrete and more life backgrounds or experiences.
2. The roll a die and add attribute
3. Feat type goodies
4. Life path systems
5. Players contributing to the fiction
6. The PbtA system of rolling 2d6 and having success, success with cost, etc.
7. Not rolling to hit, just doing damage which is mitigated by opposition's defence
8. Fail Forward
9. Meta currencies
10. Dice less mechanics
11. Story Now
12. New ideas for deep Tactical play
13. Point buy, rolling for stats, arrays, playbooks

I could go on for a very long time. D&D 5e added inspiration based off bonds, ideals and flaws. This idea came from other games. Daggerheart acknowledges many systems that they borrowed from and made their own.

This is very normal. Nobody is getting sued over it and it's expected. No need to reinvent good ideas. It's like authors saying the best advice they can give to aspiring writers is to read lots.

I'm glad your table is enjoying your game. You have mentioned that you'd like to get it published and hope to reach a large audience. This will require an understanding of what's going on in gaming circles today. You like crunchy games and that's fine. What do crunchy fans want in their games? What do current successful crunchy games look like? Don't assume your groups' enthusiasm will be replicated outside your circle. Make connections. Share your ideas, gain constructive criticism and be willing to kill some of your darlings in your game.

I think I understand your position, I used the Recipe referrence because I know there will be some overlap. That said, the intentional seeking of ideas to take for your own seems.... well let's just say I spent a lot of time representing myself and dealing with IP, and my position comes largely from that. I get the feeling from your explanation that there is a bit of a community around this idea, and being such there is room for new ideas, and if there is, as long as the credit goes to the creators then I can see that as reasonable. If not we get into an AI art kind of debate.

 

[1QD]

Yes, though we use steal in common parlance, I like 'learn' better. Steal has an ugly connotation taken out of context.

As a creator myself, I like “steal” for much the reasons I like “elfgames”: it encourages a good perspective about the innately unserious element in what we’re doing. This isn’t vital medical research, political criticism, legal argument, or whatever, it’s about making games. I want to make the best games I can, and I want others to make the best game they can can. But still.

And we exist in a community of shared interests. Writers, artists, musicians, cooks, we all benefit from such communities. We should be inspiring and taking inspiration from each other, all the time. Even though artists (including game designers) may often do their work in solitude, the pile of excellent work done by artists who never enrich their imaginations by engaging in the work of their colleagues is very close to totally flat.

Being new to the community or even outside influence not based on pop culture and my own ideas of medieval fantasy is unfamiliar ground. That is why I came here . To touch base with those with simular interests and get a feel about the attitudes of those around me. Whether or not my product will fall flat remains to be seen.

 

[chuckdee]

On the post you made there is a comment about swiping with permission.

I think I understand your position, I used the Recipe referrence because I know there will be some overlap. That said, the intentional seeking of ideas to take for your own seems.... well let's just say I spent a lot of time representing myself and dealing with IP, and my position comes largely from that. I get the feeling from your explanation that there is a bit of a community around this idea, and being such there is room for new ideas, and if there is, as long as the credit goes to the creators then I can see that as reasonable. If not we get into an AI art kind of debate.

AI art is a completely different animal, mostly because of the fact that the AI is replicating actual work, i.e. the strokes of a brush or other media. Though both are similarly artistic endeavors, writing != visual art. In visual art when done by an artist in the medium, they do a similar thing as we do in our written media, i.e. that's why you see movements like impressionism, cubism, etc. They get inspiration from the founder of that movement and build upon it to make something new.

AI doesn't do this. It samples and remixes in order to replicate, using the exact same style rather than an adaption. It's imitation, not inspiration. The closest example you could get to a human doing the same is tracing art and passing it off as their own with minor alterations. For writing, we have plagiarism, where you lift what someone says wholesale, and (maybe?) make minor alterations to try to obscure the theft.

Plagiarism and Tracing of Art is not and has never been acceptable. Inspiration and sharing with peers is the meat and bones of any creative endeavor.

 

[Aldarc]

On a 6 point scale of
0: theatrical improv
1: Rules Light
2: Rules Medium Light
3: rules Medium
4: Rules Medium Heavy
5: Rules Heavy.
6: Rules Superheavy

If you are going to have Superheavy distinct from Heavy, then you should probably also have Superlight as a category. That would also place Medium at the center, which it probably should be. That would likely put Daggerheart in the 3-4 range depending on perspective.

 

[1QD]

AI art is a completely different animal, mostly because of the fact that the AI is replicating actual work, i.e. the strokes of a brush or other media. Though both are similarly artistic endeavors, writing != visual art. In visual art when done by an artist in the medium, they do a similar thing as we do in our written media, i.e. that's why you see movements like impressionism, cubism, etc. They get inspiration from the founder of that movement and build upon it to make something new.

AI doesn't do this. It samples and remixes in order to replicate, using the exact same style rather than an adaption. It's imitation, not inspiration. The closest example you could get to a human doing the same is tracing art and passing it off as their own with minor alterations. For writing, we have plagiarism, where you lift what someone says wholesale, and (maybe?) make minor alterations to try to obscure the theft.

Plagiarism and Tracing of Art is not and has never been acceptable. Inspiration and sharing with peers is the meat and bones of any creative endeavor.

So what in your opinion seperates inspiration, from Plagirism? By the earlier statement of taking ideas found here and applying them directly to your own work I would think that is most certainly what you describe.