Different philosophies concerning Rules Heavy and Rule Light RPGs.

[pemerton]

Both responces are pretty fair. I will keep them in mind going forward.

Roleplaying game writing is partly an exercise in genre fiction. Not that we’re writing stories for others to consume, but we do provide tools our audience will use in making their own settings, characters, and events. So info about how storytellers work is often relevant to us, including info about things like inspiration.

I write professionally, but not fiction (genre or otherwise) - I'm an academic in literary disciplines (law and philosophy), and my work is published in academic journals and books. The idea of trying to do serious work without talking to others - about my ideas, about their ideas, about others' ideas - and without reading, is pretty odd to me. (I know that Andrew Wiles isolated himself for a long time while coming up with his Fermat proof. But the pure mathematicians whom I know - who are top scholars at top US institutions - seem to rely on community too, even if the role of their community is a bit different from that in my fields. Wiles is an extreme outlier.)

When it comes to acknowledgements and influences, my view is that footnotes are easy, and that it costs nothing to include someone in the acknowledgements (or even to mention, in a footnote, that a particular idea or approach was suggested by <so-and-so>). So I try to be as generous as I can. And I've also benefitted from colleagues being generous to me (the "CV" of works where I'm in the acknowledgements reads better than my own CV of published works!).

My experience in RPG design is nil, outside of GMing Rolemaster for about 19 years, which inevitably required making decisions about how to integrate and develop the many optional rules and rules modules that are found in the many RM companions (and some are even in the core rulebooks). But I don't see how someone would design a RPG without engaging with the best of the existing design work.

For someone coming from D&D, here are four free resources that I think are worth looking at, just to see what is possible and how different from D&D a RPG can be:

* Story Bones <https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/81905/Story-Bones-Plus-PDF>, the core engine for Maelstrom Storytelling, a late-90s RPG that is a pioneer in using free descriptors and combining them with close scene resolution (it post-dates Over the Edge but predates HeroWars on the free descriptor front; and predates HeroWars but postdates Prince Valiant on closed scene resolution). Reading this system (and HeroWars/Quest) also helped me to run skill challenges in 4e D&D.

* Cthulhu Dark <http://catchyourhare.com/files/Cthulhu Dark.pdf>, which is an incomplete system (it doesn't say how to frame scenes, or how to establish consequences) but illustrates what is possible with an absolutely minimalist free descriptor approach to PC build and building a dice pool for resolution.

* Burning Wheel Hub and Spokes <https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/98542/Burning-Wheel-Gold-Hub-and-Spokes>, which sets out the core rules for framing, resolution and advancement (but not PC building) in a FRPG which overlaps heavily with D&D in genre but differs from it pretty significantly in methodology. I can report from experience that the BW rules for framing and resolution can also be used quite effectively to plug the gaps in Cthulhu Dark!

* Wuthering Heights <wuthering heights>, which in both genre and methodology is a long way from D&D, but (in my admittedly limited experience) is eminently playable and delivers a fun experience.

 

[Autumnal]

Excellent stuff, pemerton.

 

[1QD]

I write professionally, but not fiction (genre or otherwise) - I'm an academic in literary disciplines (law and philosophy), and my work is published in academic journals and books. The idea of trying to do serious work without talking to others - about my ideas, about their ideas, about others' ideas - and without reading, is pretty odd to me. (I know that Andrew Wiles isolated himself for a long time while coming up with his Fermat proof. But the pure mathematicians whom I know - who are top scholars at top US institutions - seem to rely on community too, even if the role of their community is a bit different from that in my fields. Wiles is an extreme outlier.)

When it comes to acknowledgements and influences, my view is that footnotes are easy, and that it costs nothing to include someone in the acknowledgements (or even to mention, in a footnote, that a particular idea or approach was suggested by <so-and-so>). So I try to be as generous as I can. And I've also benefitted from colleagues being generous to me (the "CV" of works where I'm in the acknowledgements reads better than my own CV of published works!).

My experience in RPG design is nil, outside of GMing Rolemaster for about 19 years, which inevitably required making decisions about how to integrate and develop the many optional rules and rules modules that are found in the many RM companions (and some are even in the core rulebooks). But I don't see how someone would design a RPG without engaging with the best of the existing design work.

For someone coming from D&D, here are four free resources that I think are worth looking at, just to see what is possible and how different from D&D a RPG can be:

* Story Bones <https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/81905/Story-Bones-Plus-PDF>, the core engine for Maelstrom Storytelling, a late-90s RPG that is a pioneer in using free descriptors and combining them with close scene resolution (it post-dates Over the Edge but predates HeroWars on the free descriptor front; and predates HeroWars but postdates Prince Valiant on closed scene resolution). Reading this system (and HeroWars/Quest) also helped me to run skill challenges in 4e D&D.

* Cthulhu Dark <http://catchyourhare.com/files/Cthulhu Dark.pdf>, which is an incomplete system (it doesn't say how to frame scenes, or how to establish consequences) but illustrates what is possible with an absolutely minimalist free descriptor approach to PC build and building a dice pool for resolution.

* Burning Wheel Hub and Spokes <https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/98542/Burning-Wheel-Gold-Hub-and-Spokes>, which sets out the core rules for framing, resolution and advancement (but not PC building) in a FRPG which overlaps heavily with D&D in genre but differs from it pretty significantly in methodology. I can report from experience that the BW rules for framing and resolution can also be used quite effectively to plug the gaps in Cthulhu Dark!

* Wuthering Heights <wuthering heights>, which in both genre and methodology is a long way from D&D, but (in my admittedly limited experience) is eminently playable and delivers a fun experience.

Thank you for the links I will check them out. When I started my journey I did not want influence from other games at all. I was disatisfied with a lot that DnD had to offer. Thier idea of game balance always irked me. And nearly every other gaming environment took a simular path. I wanted a game where balance wasn't done by completely nerfing things, or players.

I wanted rules that made sense contextually, but still allowed players a great deal of freedom. That said, If I am soo off the mark, then why did PF2e and Dnd5e both attempt the same thing?

There have been a few ideas here that I have seen, some of them even in the, your game doesn't need this section....That is why many of my guidelines are optional or feature a streamlined versions.

I have also heard it stated not everyone can ablib a game of the top of thier head. I do that every week twice a week. I may make a custom encounter, but I let the story and the encounter system drive the plot, which grants me a tonne of freedom.

So this is why I avoided all the other systems. One I didn't want to plagerize, copy or be overly influenced by a lot of the games out there, because they had much the same thing going on. And even in my game there will be famil;iar things, both good and bad, But I can say from the testimonials I got from my last conventions, where I ran a 1 shots all weekend, The reviews were positive. Many people have told me that my game is better than DnD. While I will take that with a table spoon of salt, it does keep getting said. Besides people are often nicer to you to your face than from behind a computer screen.

 

[chuckdee]

Cthulhu Dark

The full version with everything is here for reference - https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/341997/cthulhu-dark