Different philosophies concerning Rules Heavy and Rule Light RPGs.

[chuckdee]

Is there a point you are trying to make here that is somehow useful to the subject? I have my opinions also based on how I like my own system, and a light rules approach would do poorly expressing it. Now unless you are the opinion police and have come to arrest me I'd apprecieate it if you would kindly scroll onward when in the future you come to an opinion you disagree with.

That is a weirdly aggressive reply to someone that is trying to help. I'm not trying to police your opinion, so maybe you'd like to read my response? Games theory and design has moved on in the 20 years since. Your opinion is lacking needed context as many have seen and said. There's no need to get defensive, because I am in no way attacking you, and therefore there was no reason for you to attack me. Stick to the facts of the conversation, and we can continue to converse.

 

[chuckdee]

Yes, you are repeating my point on "Recipe Copyright", Recipies can not be copyrighted either, just like some aspects of your games design. But I am not talking legal loophole, I am talking moral compass.

20 years ago, people (TSR mostly) thought thus, and it started to strangle the hobby. This was challenged, and proven wrong. Sharing is a staple and the lifeblood of this hobby, and many if not most products in the hobby stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before, and do it proudly.

 

[soviet]

A lot of indie style games these days openly list their references and inspirations. It's a good thing to be influenced by other creators, and to acknowledge that.

 

[1QD]

Just to be clear, your position is that art that takes inspiration from other art is immoral?

That is the point behind the AI issue. And to be clear if you are looking at other peoples work to steal ideas for your own work, then Yes, totally. If it is not offered freely, in essence you are stealing other peoples ideas.

 

[soviet]

That is the point behind the AI issue. And to be clear if you are looking at other peoples work to steal ideas for your own work, then Yes, totally. If it is not offered freely, in essence you are stealing other peoples ideas.

So, all art, all movies, all TV, all books, all RPGs other than yours, are immoral?

 

[TiQuinn]

Regarding “stealing ideas” in the art space reminds me of Jules Feiffer talking about swiping in the newspaper comic days.

Sheldon Moldoff's Hawkman and the art of the swipe

Sheldon Moldoff came on the comics scene at the very beginning of the Golden Age of comics. He quickly became a hot young artist at Nati...

thegreatcomicbookheroes.blogspot.com

 

[pemerton]

Late 90s games are very different from now.

Games theory and design has moved on in the 20 years since.

Although there are also some very interesting (and reasonably influential) games from the late 90s. The two I'm thinking of (admittedly one has a 2000 publication date, from memory) are Maelstrom Storytelling and HeroWars. The latter morphed into HeroQuest, then HeroQuest revised, and now there is a version (that I know only by reputation) called QuestWorlds. The engine for the former can still be downloaded for free as Story Bones: https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/81905/Story-Bones-Plus-PDF

These are early examples (though not as early as Over the Edge!) of free descriptors for PC build, and are also early examples (though not as early as Prince Valiant) of complex scene-based resolution.

I'm not sure whether either counts as rules light, though compared to D&D or similar games I think they could.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yes, you are repeating my point on "Recipe Copyright", Recipies can not be copyrighted either, just like some aspects of your games design. But I am not talking legal loophole, I am talking moral compass.

And I'm not seeing a single moral issue. All work is built on prior work in one fashion or another, creative, technological or (as RPGs are) combinations of the two. The question isn't whether you're using prior art; the question is whether you're bringing something new to the table while doing it.

 

[Arilyn]

Designers steal ideas? Openly? Umm where do I begin? I mean to some degree it falls in a legal "recipe copyright" zone...That I understand, and as someone who has copyright in multiple countries, I can say that openly admitting to stealing other peoples IP is an unwise move.

I will refrain from any further Ted Talks on the subject. Instead I will counter that by staying away from other peoples ideas, then the expression of my game becomes pure creativity, and blends in with the needs of the gaming system as a whole. Not relying on DnD is a double edge sword, while open liscence rules are not available, I am not held down by any DnD expectations, rulesets or even methods of expression. While some may look familiar, (there is only soo many names or labels for Strength for ex), by and by the product has it's own unique feel. If you play my game like you do Dnd, you will most likely fail.

That said, I openly acknowledge that 90's games may be different and that rule's light may be different. It still does not cause me any reason for excitement. It stands to reason, the less rules you have, the more guessing, and just making it up as you go, you will have to do. I can invent a game that determines any and all successes and failiure with the toss of the coin. I can eliminate stats completly and turn everything otherwise into a coin toss.

To some, this may be fun, but it will lack getting familiar with the mechanics, the player will lose much of the sense of mastering a new skill, or researching that ability through thier own efforts. There are soo many treasure troves of rewards hidden in my mechanics that you can almost feel the success of your character. Rules light systems do not carry that same enjoyment for me and nor can they if they are light.

Finally I understand not all will love this approach but for me roleplaying is the easy part, but do your rules reflect life, as a personal observation? Do they truly allow a player to become not just powerful, but goddy? And in doing so, does it still make you earn it? Do you follow a path to godhood? I mean my gaming group just celebrated 10 years of consistant every weekend gaming. My second group is back for its 5th or 6th year. You don't keep people that long over nothing.

I put steal in quotes for a reason, as it's not literally stealing games. Designers, of course, learn from each other. For example:
1. Using skills as less concrete and more life backgrounds or experiences.
2. The roll a die and add attribute
3. Feat type goodies
4. Life path systems
5. Players contributing to the fiction
6. The PbtA system of rolling 2d6 and having success, success with cost, etc.
7. Not rolling to hit, just doing damage which is mitigated by opposition's defence
8. Fail Forward
9. Meta currencies
10. Dice less mechanics
11. Story Now
12. New ideas for deep Tactical play
13. Point buy, rolling for stats, arrays, playbooks

I could go on for a very long time. D&D 5e added inspiration based off bonds, ideals and flaws. This idea came from other games. Daggerheart acknowledges many systems that they borrowed from and made their own.

This is very normal. Nobody is getting sued over it and it's expected. No need to reinvent good ideas. It's like authors saying the best advice they can give to aspiring writers is to read lots.

I'm glad your table is enjoying your game. You have mentioned that you'd like to get it published and hope to reach a large audience. This will require an understanding of what's going on in gaming circles today. You like crunchy games and that's fine. What do crunchy fans want in their games? What do current successful crunchy games look like? Don't assume your groups' enthusiasm will be replicated outside your circle. Make connections. Share your ideas, gain constructive criticism and be willing to kill some of your darlings in your game.

 

[Arilyn]

Although there are also some very interesting (and reasonably influential) games from the late 90s. The two I'm thinking of (admittedly one has a 2000 publication date, from memory) are Maelstrom Storytelling and HeroWars. The latter morphed into HeroQuest, then HeroQuest revised, and now there is a version (that I know only by reputation) called QuestWorlds. The engine for the former can still be downloaded for free as Story Bones: https://legacy.drivethrurpg.com/product/81905/Story-Bones-Plus-PDF

These are early examples (though not as early as Over the Edge!) of free descriptors for PC build, and are also early examples (though not as early as Prince Valiant) of complex scene-based resolution.

I'm not sure whether either counts as rules light, though compared to D&D or similar games I think they could.

Yes, there's a lot of morphing and evolution and sometimes going back, but more cleaned up or more modern mechanics.