D&D General 5e System Redesign through New Classes and Setting. A Thought Experiment.

I lost all interest at the big bold 4e got it right.

4e wasn’t actually balanced. Twin Strike and Frost cheese anyone? That said most powers were balanced with each other because they were all some variation of 2W damage + small effect. The only mechanically interesting ones did other stuff and were few and far between. Especially in base PHB. This gave a feel of balance to most players that didn’t mix max heavily, some often called the kind of balance achieved from this sameyness.

That said, I agree that a whole set of unique classes per setting is a great idea. Im for more classes in general so thats an easy sell for me.

Im also for lots of dials around what is allowed by skill checks in a given setting and the difficulty of those tasks being adjustable.

Similar dials should also be around rest and recovery.

Then there needs to be well considered guidelines for how to appropriately increase encounter difficulty. For example adding more enemies to an aoe control heavy party probably changes little. Facing an individual enemy twice as strong probably matters little if the party has multiple single target control abilities (unless the enemy has across the board strong resistances to those effects). Etc.
Not the balance of 4e. The pacing of 4e.

The existence of encounter-abilities ensures you can't dump -everything- into a single fight and have no resources for the rest of the day. It creates a functionality floor slightly higher than "I'm out of spell slots to smite, so I just hit him with my sword"

And if you also limited daily abilities to 1/encounter, even if you have 6 of them, you also avoid the nova dumping, there.

So instead of the Paladin dumping all their spell slots into smiting in the first couple rounds of combat, you could make Smiting a non-spell function usable twice per encounter dealing extra d8s equal to your proficiency bonus, for example. Which, coincidentally, helps to reign in the Sorcadin dropping 7th and 8th level spell slot smite crits while still making high end paladin smites 6d8.
 

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Isn't Waterdeep (or any big city) not another maze? And if they kicked the hornets nest, wouldn't getting to other locations not also provide hurdles when the enemy also knows the city well or better then the party? Facing another group of thugs suddenly becomes a LOT more dangerous when they alpha-striked the first group and the next group is between them and their supplier of healing potions... I think it's about educating players in a different play style, for if you let this happen continuously without consequence, nothing will ever change and no matter how you redesign it, they will continue to behave this way.
The difference is narrative vs location-based play. A dungeon is location-based play: you're goal it to explore the dungeon and achieve some goal (loot all the treasure, find all the kidnapped villagers, disrupt the cultists, slay the dragon, etc). Generally, encounters are structured by rooms and the rooms are arranged so that the players must encounter so many of them before they reach their goal. In that scenario, attrition is easy to measure: I have 10 rooms and six encounters, I know my players were be involved in most or all of them and thus I can balance for a longer adventuring day. Likewise, my players know there is going to be multiple encounters and will pace accordingly.
Narrative gameplay, where play is designed around encounters happening in a time-based or cause-and-effect order, is murkier. For one, there isn't as much of a time-based pressure unless the DM instills one. Investigating a mystery has no set window of time unless the DM places a ticking clock (find the killer before he strikes again). Second, there is much less emphasis on constant danger. Waterdeep has dangers, but its still a major civilian city. Players don't worry about random monsters, rarely worry about ambushes, and very rarely worry about traps and hazards costing resources. The fact that players can often take short or long rests in the safety of the inn which is usually a short walk away, not a miles-long trek back. Finally, narrative gameplay is often reactionary to the players, so its much harder to judge how many encounters before they figure out the Count and his men are behind the poisoning and they may approach the Count daisy fresh or after several encounters with his thugs. Hard to judge how difficult to make the encounter with the Count.
I'm using an urban/mystery style adventure because its perhaps the most easy example of an anti-dungeon that is still a classic model of D&D play. There are plenty of other examples.
To be honest, it's not that the system 'fails' outside of the dungeon, it's the DM that fails. You either do one encounter by design in an urban, woodland, etc. setting or you do multiple, and each choice is on the DM. And if you only do one encounter, that's not a problem imho, due to the alpha-strike nature of the characters, they can handle a pretty big encounter, just be sure you know what that is exactly before you start throwing heavy artillery in their direction. But you don't have too stick with only one encounter outside of the dungeon...
Again, its more a question of controlling how many encounters. For example: a three-day trip to explore the woods to get to a dungeon. Typically, random encounter checks aren't rolled more than 1-2 times per day. So if the PCs do have an encounter on the road, why aren't they novaing? What are the odds they will encounter two, let alone 6-8, random encounters in one day of travel? If so, each day to the dungeon WOULD BE a dungeon! That's Final Fantasy levels of overworld encounters!

Think of it as an action movie: In this scene the heroes just used all their ammo and handgrenades to take out the gangmember hideout, but they called for reinforcements, which show up and chase the heroes.
A fine scenario, but how many sets of reinforcements can a hidden cult or a crime syndicate call on? And if they had so many resources, why are they attacking black-ninja style in waves?

That's what I'm getting at about D&D's resource management being based on multiple small encounters PER DAY. If you don't have that many encounters in the allotted timeframe, you run the risk each encounter can be overcome with superior firepower the encounter design system didn't account for. (Mearl's point). However, its nearly impossible to get 6-8 encounters per long rest UNLESS you design under a very specific set of restrictions (PCs are forced to fight multiple encounters, have limited access to rest/recharge, and on a strict time limit) and the only place that makes sense without feeling arbitrary is The Dungeon. Once you leave the dungeon, the DM must force those limits to remain or the potential to nova (and thus ruin anything resembling balance in the encounter creation rules) goes up.

What OP is discussing is the idea that resources be built around Per Encounter rather than Per Day management, so that the number of encounters a day must have is no longer forced. It doesn't matter if an adventure has one encounter or eight, the PCs will bring the same amount of energy to each.
 

Yeah main problem is dailies existing full stop.. But 1 -2
Encounters its easier to wear PCs done pre 3E.

People like smites, action surges etc but they haven't quite figured out they're contributing to the problem as well.

If its actually a problem for them (take foum bitching with a large grain of salt).
Players like buttons to press. I don't think the genie's going back into the bottle. I can't imagine D&D returning to a world where the fighter, ranger, barbarian, paladin, and rogue have nothing more interesting to do than attack each turn.
 

I’m always skeptical of arguments that begin by handwaving inconvenient evidence. For example, and we see this a lot, that 5e is immensely popular despite being bad due to: Covid/Critical Role/Stranger Things/Luck/people not knowing any better/etc.

Maybe it’s popular because most folks playing it really like it and word spreads? That, though far from perfect (what is?) it’s a really good game, and we’re not dumb for enjoying it?

I also strongly dispute the argument that the emphasis on shorter combat is due to players “solving” the game. Most of my players can barely remember the difference between an action and a bonus action; don’t even get me started on reactions. I think the trend towards fewer but more impactful combats has been happening for decades as the genre has matured. We see it across almost all TTRGs.
 

I’m always skeptical of arguments that begin by handwaving inconvenient evidence. For example, and we see this a lot, that 5e is immensely popular despite being bad due to: Covid/Critical Role/Stranger Things/Luck/people not knowing any better/etc.

Maybe it’s popular because most folks playing it really like it and word spreads? That, though far from perfect (what is?) it’s a really good game, and we’re not dumb for enjoying it?

I also strongly dispute the argument that the emphasis on shorter combat is due to players “solving” the game. Most of my players can barely remember the difference between an action and a bonus action; don’t even get me started on reactions. I think the trend towards fewer but more impactful combats has been happening for decades as the genre has matured.
I didn't say the game is "Bad".

I said the game is inherently imbalanced because the original designers didn't take into account the potency of novas and the 5 minute adventuring day.

Based on Mike Mearls, one of the people who designed the game in the first place, openly admitting that they'd overestimated how many rounds of combat players would be in during the day by a factor of 5.

There's at least two ways to fix this problem. Either inflate the hell out of NPC HP in order to make them survive long enough for the nova to be impactful but not end the encounter right away. This has the side-effects of both destroying CR calculations, and encouraging a long rest before every single encounter even harder.

I'm suggesting a different way that addresses the issue, directly. One that would make CR calculations actually -work- as they've been balanced.
 

Players like buttons to press. I don't think the genie's going back into the bottle. I can't imagine D&D returning to a world where the fighter, ranger, barbarian, paladin, and rogue have nothing more interesting to do than attack each turn.

Point. That's the main problem though isn't? Nova buttons and easy healing and bulk HP?

And the players of course even if Mearls is being slightly hyperbolic.
 
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And there's really two reasons the game plays like that:
Nether of those are the correct reasons.

1) common sense aversion to a death spiral. No one goes into danger when they are exhausted - even if there is time pressure, going to your death ain’t going to help anyone. And this has always been the case since before 1st edition. You leave the dungeon and return to town when resources are low, because carrying on would be stupid.

2) Narrative rhythm. Fantasy heroes fight big monsters and powerful villains. They are not threatened by mooks and minions. Beowulf killed Grendel, Mummy, and a Dragon (but not all on the same day). It’s only the boss fights that matter, and that’s the way it should be.

3) continuous fights of similar difficulty that do not individually threaten the party are BORING. Combat should needs to be spread out between other kinds of activities, and that generally means across days or weeks. And the difficulty needs to be unpredictable, so every fight might be a life or death struggle so far as the players know.
 

Nether of those are the correct reasons.

1) common sense aversion to a death spiral. No one goes into danger when they are exhausted - even if there is time pressure, going to your death ain’t going to help anyone. And this has always been the case since before 1st edition. You leave the dungeon and return to town when resources are low, because carrying on would be stupid.

2) Narrative rhythm. Fantasy heroes fight big monsters and powerful villains. They are not threatened by mooks and minions. Beowulf killed Grendel, Mummy, and a Dragon (but not all on the same day). It’s only the boss fights that matter, and that’s the way it should be.

3) continuous fights of similar difficulty that do not individually threaten the party are BORING. Combat should needs to be spread out between other kinds of activities, and that generally means across days or weeks. And the difficulty needs to be unpredictable, so every fight might be a life or death struggle so far as the players know.
Isn't 3) just 2) (narrative rhythm) in a different context?
 

Nether of those are the correct reasons.

1) common sense aversion to a death spiral. No one goes into danger when they are exhausted - even if there is time pressure, going to your death ain’t going to help anyone. And this has always been the case since before 1st edition. You leave the dungeon and return to town when resources are low, because carrying on would be stupid.

2) Narrative rhythm. Fantasy heroes fight big monsters and powerful villains. They are not threatened by mooks and minions. Beowulf killed Grendel, Mummy, and a Dragon (but not all on the same day). It’s only the boss fights that matter, and that’s the way it should be.

3) continuous fights of similar difficulty that do not individually threaten the party are BORING. Combat should needs to be spread out between other kinds of activities, and that generally means across days or weeks. And the difficulty needs to be unpredictable, so every fight might be a life or death struggle so far as the players know.
1) "Common aversion to a death spiral" is a separate discussion. We're not talking about levels of fatigue, here, adding constant increasing bonuses to characters. We're talking about player tendency to dump more power than is needed into a given fight, then rest to recover before taking on another fight because you spent so many resources on the previous fight that you can't do it, again, on the next one.

2) Narrative Rhythm is also a separate discussion. Because people are dumping too much power into the mooks and minions and have to take a long nap in before fighting Grendel or his mother because they've expended too many resources in the first fight.

3) This one might actually have some kind of weight... but that's gonna be a matter of personal opinion and whether or not characters are -actually- threatened by the common encounters or not. If they aren't, then the CR system was broken independently of the Nova Tendency. If the CR math Mearls and the others worked on is actually valid, and players spent resources at a reasonable pace, the common fights might actually be interesting rather than boring.
 

Not the balance of 4e. The pacing of 4e.
I don't think you can really talk about 1 without the other. As an example, a class twice as strong as another will always need different pacing to be equally challenged.

Unless you are meaning something much different by pacing than I am.

The existence of encounter-abilities ensures you can't dump -everything- into a single fight and have no resources for the rest of the day. It creates a functionality floor slightly higher than "I'm out of spell slots to smite, so I just hit him with my sword"

And if you also limited daily abilities to 1/encounter, even if you have 6 of them, you also avoid the nova dumping, there.
My contention
Functionally for a single class in relation to pacing, if you are designing a floor/ceiling it doesn't matter whether the floor/ceiling consists of at-wills, encounter powers or daily powers or some combination of them, so long as you get your encounter powers back every encounter and limit the dailies in uses per encounter such that you have no choice but to pace them.

Pacing is derived from the floors and ceilings themselves compared to the encounter guidelines and not from the at-will/encounter/daily distribution that the floor and ceiling is derived from.

Traditional 5e casters often have a very low floor and a very high ceiling output for a typical encounter. This is the difference in using only cantrips vs your biggest spells in that encounter.

Having such large floor/ceiling discrepancies can make the game really forgiving to players. That's probably an overall good thing. As if the DM miscalculates encounter difficulty the players have the proper levers they can pull to still overcome the encounter. They may need to rest sooner than later, but they didn't die in the encounter.

So instead of the Paladin dumping all their spell slots into smiting in the first couple rounds of combat, you could make Smiting a non-spell function usable twice per encounter dealing extra d8s equal to your proficiency bonus, for example. Which, coincidentally, helps to reign in the Sorcadin dropping 7th and 8th level spell slot smite crits while still making high end paladin smites 6d8.
This would be an example of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling. Assuming no other changes to the game structure this would decrease the variance around class output and thus help stabilize the pacing.

I think it might be helpful to look at various classes floor/ceilings to really get an idea of what's happening. I'll do a few in a subsequent post.
 

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