D&D General 5e System Redesign through New Classes and Setting. A Thought Experiment.

[Paul Farquhar]

Isn't 3) just 2) (narrative rhythm) in a different context?

2) is about genre emulation, 3) is about game pacing and fun. But they aren’t completely unconnected, true.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Grendel or his mother because they've expended too many resources in the first fight.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with resources (Beowulf didn’t use any). Beowulf did not fight the second monster because it didn’t appear until quite a while later. And that was because it was basically a sequel. one monster is enough for one story, having more monsters devalues all monsters.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

common fights might actually be interesting rather than boring.

If the fights are about expending resources, then the players cannot “lose” the individual fights. However, they can consume too many resources, as a consequence of bad rolls or whatever, which means the party will enter the final battle with no chance of winning.

The solution is to focus on boss fights, and make them potentially deadly to a party at or near full strength. The players can rest whenever they like.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm going to look at 3 rounds.

In 4e a lower level Fighter would typically do 1[W] + mod damage with at will. 2[W] + mod damage with encounter and 3[W] + mod damage with daily. Most would offer some small rider. If there was a particularly strong rider then the damage might be lowered.

So a level 1 Fighter floor would be something like 4[W]+3mod over 3 rounds (1 encounter 2 at-will). The ceiling would be something like 6[W]+3mod (1 daily, 1 encounter, 1 at will. That's maybe ~33% more damage output (depends a bit on weapon and str mod).

A 5e Fighter with action surge is similar. 3[W]+3mod (attacks). And the ceiling is 4[W]+4mod (attacks+action surge). That's ~33% more damage for the ceiling. Specific subclasses may get a little more.



Even 5e Paladins, their ceiling in 3 rounds is only about twice as much as their floor (assuming all spell slots go to smite). It varies a bit by level but a bit above or below that remains fairly consistent for most of the game. (Thinking for 2014. For 2024, the ceiling from smiting over 3 rounds is a bit less.).

tldr: the damage difference between floor and ceiling for 4e and 5e PC's using resources like action surge or smite or typical at will, encounter, daily powers is usually much less than ceiling = 200% of the floor. I think probably at most it should be 150% to 160% of the floor. Doing 1/2 output feels bad, doing 2/3 feels manageable IMO.

The bigger issue is full casters that output probably 5x their floor over 3 rounds if desired (concentration helps here). But it really incentivizes long rests too much IMO. Caster floor probably needs raised and ceiling probably needs lowered. One way to do this might be assign each spell a resource cost and only give the caster so much resource for the encounter. Possibly allow him to go a little beyond that limit to a certain threshold for some negative effect.

 

[Remathilis]

Point. That's the main problem though isn't? Nova buttons and easy healing and bulk HP?

And the players of course even if Mearls is being slightly hyperbolic.

True, but if that was the whole problem, then we solved for it 30+ years ago with BECMI.

 

[Zardnaar]

True, but if that was the whole problem, then we solved for it 30+ years ago with BECMI.

BECMI lacked easy mode healing and old school monster design mitigated 5MWD to some extent.

BECMI also had multiple hexcrawl adventures where 1 encounter every few days worked.

Difference was no expectation of a balanced encounter. 4th level stumbling onto an adult dragon.tough luck. Roleplaying/tribute time.

So two self inflicted wounds from modern design. Well 3. Monster design, encounter design and easy mode healing.

As I said playing C&C random encounters with reasonably basic monsters PCs had to return to town.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Difference was no expectation of a balanced encounter

This.

And 5e works fine if you don’t worry about balanced encounters.

 

[Zardnaar]

This.

And 5e works fine if you don’t worry about balanced encounters.

Yeah living world thing. My games lesn in this direction.

On ENworld thats Badwrongfun though lol.

I've played with a lot of newbies last year or so. They're a lot more fire and forget tham veterans but thy adapt fast enough once theyre reduced to spamming cantrips.

If they long rest they miss put or enemies redeploy/reinforce. Tables get dragged around/used as cover, glyphs of warding, explosive barrels etc get deployed.

 

[FrogReaver]

If the fights are about expending resources, then the players cannot “lose” the individual fights. However, they can consume too many resources, as a consequence of bad rolls or whatever, which means the party will enter the final battle with no chance of winning.

The solution is to focus on boss fights, and make them potentially deadly to a party at or near full strength. The players cannot rest whenever they like.

I don't think it's just boss fights. But I do think 1-3 encounters per rest period is the sweet spot. I think each encounter needs to be difficult, but I think there should be enough recovery options between encounters that the next is only slightly more difficult due to being in the previous. Some common ways to accomplish this would be encounter recharge powers or 5 min short rests. Could also give enough resources but place strict per enocunter limits on them that they could go through alot more encounters if needed but narratively will likely get to rest and get back to full strength before that.

 

[FrogReaver]

This.

And 5e works fine if you don’t worry about balanced encounters.

What does 'works fine' even mean?