D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Micah Sweet]

Nor will I. However, if it isn't apparent, a good amount of the time it will come up with cause. That will keep the players from just assuming constant risk free rests, because the world doesn't stop moving and facts that would cause the rest to be a bad idea don't vanish from existence because the players have learned about them.

I think the anecdotes of folks here have shown that your perspective on time pressure and its effects on players is not an unassailable position. Some people won't care, and others will take said pressure as the mark of an adversarial GM and push back outside of play.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Its a DM and player issue maybe playstyle.

Video games as well. Theres nothing explicit in the rules saying NO DON'T DO THIS.

Experienced DM xan easily counter it but its not the dominant playstyle anymore.

Even worse players have been trained to expect easy mode.

So @tetrasodium's anecdotes about players who do not care about time pressure and think novaloop is the right way to play is something I have hard time relating to. Like the players do not care about the story? "If you rest now, the cultists will have time to open the portal and summon a demon that eats the entire village!" "We don't care, good night." Like yeah, this would be a problem, but I also don't think it is a game design problem rather than incompatible gaming tastes problem. I simply couldn't and wouldn't play with people like this.

But I think more common is that the players want to care about the story and they do not want to win by spamming the nova button, but they are not given proper reason to act otherwise by the system and the GM.

But why would they play like this if it is not fun for them? The thing is, self nerfing is not fun either. In skilled play the point is that you have problem, you have the tools, and then you try to come up with a good solution for the problem using the tools you have. And if a tool is a good one, then you use that. In this sort of approach it does not really work for the players simply choose not use the tool because it is too good. But having an obviously most powerful and correct tool destroys the playstyle as well, as then there really is no problem to solve. So this is why I think it is up to the game designers and the GM to make sure that there are no obvious shortcuts and win bottons.

 

[Zardnaar]

So @tetrasodium's anecdotes about players who do not care about time pressure and think novaloop is the right way to play is something I have hard time relating to. Like the players do not care about the story? "If you rest now, the cultists will have time to open the portal and summon a demon that eats the entire village!" "We don't care, good night." Like yeah, this would be a problem, but I also don't think it is a game design problem rather than incompatible gaming tastes problem. I simply couldn't and wouldn't play with people like this.

But I think more common is that the players want to care about the story and they do not want to win by spamming the nova button, but they are not given proper reason to act otherwise by the system and the GM.

But why would they play like this if it is not fun for them? The thing is, self nerfing is not fun either. In skilled play the point is that you have problem, you have the tools, and then you try to come up with a good solution for the problem using the tools you have. And if a tool is a good one, then you use that. In this sort of approach it does not really work for the players simply choose not use the tool because it is too good. But having an obviously most powerful and correct tool destroys the playstyle as well, as then there really is no problem to solve. So this is why I think it is up to the game designers and the GM to make sure that there are no obvious shortcuts and win bottons.

They are having fun though. They're not deliberately metagamimg but more if they have the spells available they'll use them. I'm rarely seeing them use cantrips. They either blow everything and rest or playing with my veterans they start using spells like spirit guardians, summons or sunbeam.

Ran a few newbie groups last year and 3 groups earlier this year.

Also on BG forums theyre usually using level 6 spells a lot. Long rest of they run out.

My Sorcerer pkayer usually first to run out of spells unless his sons playing then its fireball until I run out (he's improving).

They see veterans using spirit guardians though. Then its that plus fireball.

Fireball means that, lightning bolt, Synaptic static, Chromatic orb etc.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

They are having fun though.

Then there is no problem.

I was sorta talking from my perspective. As player I don't like if the game is too easy and that there are too good and obvious solutions. But from skilled play perspective it is not satisfying to self nerf either. "Like yeah, we totally could rest and nova and there are no consequences for doing so, but if we do then the game would be too easy, so we don't." That is unsatisfying. I want the system and the GM to set the limits, and then I can try to do my best within them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

ALSO: The rest issue is significantly mitigated if a long rest requires 10 days (or a week or a month or a winter or something) instead of 8 hours. The overnight rest recharge is a question worth revisiting in D&D, I think: resting should be a more significant choice than just "okay, reset your character sheet for the next scene".

 

[Zardnaar]

ALSO: The rest issue is significantly mitigated if a long rest requires 10 days (or a week or a month or a winter or something) instead of 8 hours. The overnight rest recharge is a question worth revisiting in D&D, I think: resting should be a more significant choice than just "okay, reset your character sheet for the next scene".

Still doesn't solve it though unless you're adding more encounters to get to the mythical 6-8.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

ALSO: The rest issue is significantly mitigated if a long rest requires 10 days (or a week or a month or a winter or something) instead of 8 hours. The overnight rest recharge is a question worth revisiting in D&D, I think: resting should be a more significant choice than just "okay, reset your character sheet for the next scene".

Absolutely. I think longer long rests should have been the default, as it fits way better the modern CR inspired playstyle where there is a lot of story and combats are rarer. And it is then easier for a GM to say that we're using shorter rests instead. Buffs to PCs are always easier to sell than nerfs.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Still doesn't solve it though unless you're adding more encounters to get to the mythical 6-8.

Well, the amount of combats within the narrative doesn't have to change, as longer rest makes longer "adventure days" so that temporarily separated combats now are on the same resource budget whereas previously they would be on separate ones. Like the common travel example. If you can long rest only at your destination (or perhaps not even there if it is some dangerous tomb or something) then all the combats on the way will cause attrition. But with normal rests resources are reset every day, so they really do not matter unless someone manages to die (or at later levels TPK as single death is easily fixed.)

And yeah, 6-8 speedbump fights is still boring to me, but about 3-5 tougher ones works fine.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Still doesn't solve it though unless you're adding more encounters to get to the mythical 6-8.

That's where I think examining monster design would help. D&D5e has legendary monsters, but the design logic behind them is opaque, there's not enough, and they're a little one-note (ie: they're the ONLY solution used regularly by 5e to handle boss encounters). Additionally, long combats get grindy, and tables don't generally love spending hours in a single fight.

It's an area sorely in need of more content and more design work.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That's where I think examining monster design would help. D&D5e has legendary monsters, but the design logic behind them is opaque, there's not enough, and they're a little one-note (ie: they're the ONLY solution used regularly by 5e to handle boss encounters). Additionally, long combats get grindy, and tables don't generally love spending hours in a single fight.

I always wondered why basically all legendary monsters had three legendary resistances and actions (I think in 5.5. they vary it a bit more.) I have made several "mini-legendary" monsters by taking a tough monster and giving it a single legendary resistance and action (usually just its basic attack or sometimes spell.) It is not much, but I think it made some fights a bit more challenging at lower levels where full three action/resistance legendary might have been a bit too much.