D&D General Refresher Course D&D Edition Numbers. AKA Modern D&D Is a Self Inflicted Problem.

[TiQuinn]

@Staffan - All true, but my point remains.

We don’t “vote” for the next game system. It’s designed.

And each edition had its pros and cons, fans and haters, and each one ended up living on in other games, either directly or as strong inspiration.

 

[Zardnaar]

I disagree with 4E.
4E mainly used healing surges as its adventuring day resource. Battles were assumed that every PC used their at-wills and encounter powers and some using dailies. The power of dailies are muted until high levels when each PC can use multiple Dailies.

The issue with 5e is that the LR class features are very impactful. So it is very tempting to dump them on problems and rest if the opportunity appears or is hinted.
One fix would be to have a beefier start an a duller curve for health and power. However that's not what the community originally wanted.

4E you will never run out of healing surges with 1 encounter.

Its essentially blow your daily then both encounter powers then hack away with at walks until you win. Hell you probably wont even use healing surges.

I reread the 4E dmg last night. No encounter RAW is going to fo ay better than 5E. 4E combat lasts longer with higher damage in 5.5 two high encounters will do more danage than 1 4E encounter RAW.

Espicially if youre using 4E MM.

Not only dies 4E gave the same issue as 5E its actually worse (slower combat, less damage more nova abilities across the board).

Mearls exact example was 4 rounds. Only way you pull multioke encounters off in 4E is the easiest encounters or cherry picked monsters.

Youre just as cooked. Healing surges are irrelevant you wont even need them. If you gave a leader its almost auto win.

 

[Remathilis]

"Original D&D is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing."

- diaglo

 

[TiQuinn]

"Original D&D is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing."

- diaglo

3d6, in order.

 

[Minigiant]

4E you will never run out of healing surges with 1 encounter.

Its essentially blow your daily then both encounter powers then hack away with at walks until you win. Hell you probably wont even use healing surges.

My point was 4e was a Healing Surge Attrition game not a HP Attrition game.

Every 2 encounters you got an action point and an magic item recharge. So You could do on "forever" offensively but you quit when your HS get low.

Draw Steel copies this style as you get Victories as you lose Recoveries.

5e went back to HP Attrition and inflated it to heck.

 

[Zardnaar]

My point was 4e was a Healing Surge Attrition game not a HP Attrition game.

Every 2 encounters you got an action point and an magic item recharge. So You could do on "forever" offensively but you quit when your HS get low.

Draw Steel copies this style as you get Victories as you lose Recoveries.

5e went back to HP Attrition and inflated it to heck.

Erm its same thing. Both you regain everything overnight, healing surges essentially double or triple your hp, and 4E has more HP early removing that whoops you died risk 5E retained at lvl 1 maybe 2.

And 4E monster damage is anemic compared to 5E.

Beats me how 4E is better in 4 round days. Daily, encounter x2, at will. You're essentially going nova 3/4 rounds. That's how newbies are playing.

 

[Staffan]

Erm its same thing. Both you regain everything overnight, healing surges essentially double or triple your hp, and 4E has more HP early removing that whoops you died risk 5E retained at lvl 1 maybe 2.

I think Healing Surges are a genius bit of design as they allow for rapid post-battle recovery of hit points, although with a limit, while still limiting the hp available in any given encounter providing for at least potential sense of danger.

One of the things I'm a little wary of in Draw Steel is that it might be too easy to access your recoveries in combat (the Catch Breath maneuver, essentially a bonus action, to heal 1/3 of your Stamina). But from the actual plays I've seen on the YouTubes, it seems that it's fairly common for a fight to toss out enough damage at the PCs that they'll need it.

 

[Distracted DM]

Is this about HP bloat? General numbers bloat? I have often wondered if 5e would be better served with ""lower numbers" by getting rid of stuff like +CON to hp and such, but since I run on A5E FoundryVTT it'd be impossible for me to cut out HP like that.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think Healing Surges are a genius bit of design as they allow for rapid post-battle recovery of hit points, although with a limit, while still limiting the hp available in any given encounter providing for at least potential sense of danger.

One of the things I'm a little wary of in Draw Steel is that it might be too easy to access your recoveries in combat (the Catch Breath maneuver, essentially a bonus action, to heal 1/3 of your Stamina). But from the actual plays I've seen on the YouTubes, it seems that it's fairly common for a fight to toss out enough damage at the PCs that they'll need it.

You might lije it but you can't deny it contributes to modern HP bloat though xan you?

It basically doubles or tripkes your HP recovery and 25% minor action+1d6 outstrip most healing spells in pre 4E games.

Wands of cure light wounds aren't hard coded in (and were also terrible).

4E had to slow tge game down as well (low damage high hp high recovery). If everything dues fast it makes tactics and roles concept pointless. 5E is high everything (except maybe initial PC hp).

I also remember 4E fans coming up with striker heavy parties with a leader to keep them going. Death is still best debuff right?

 

[Staffan]

You might lije it but you can't deny it contributes to modern HP bloat though xan you?

It basically doubles or tripkes your HP recovery and 25% minor action+1d6 outstrip most healing spells in pre 4E games.

Depends on what you mean by bloat. They don't, as a concept, contribute to the hp you have available within one encounter (except with Second Wind which for most people is an action to use). There's nothing that says you couldn't include healing surges in 3e except the work you'd need to rework all healing magic (and figure out what to do about different levels of healing spells). And they also make healing proportional in a very nice way – having an action spent on healing actually giving a decent result is nice.

Do they make it harder to wear PCs down through sandbagging them across multiple encounters? Yes. That's a feature, not a bug.

Wands of cure light wounds aren't hard coded in (and were also terrible).

If you have the cure light wounds spell in the game and the Craft Wand feat, you will have wands of cure light wounds. And I think those probably make attrition even more difficult than healing surges do, because wands have no limit other than money, and the exchange rate of gp per hp is amazing.