D&D 5E (2024) 2nd level casters are disappoint

[Zardnaar]

If we accept the premise that Entangle, Goodberry, medium armor, and shields makes a caster on par with the best level 2 martials wouldn't that lead us to rangers being the best of the best at those levels because they have that too and more?

Bards, sorcerers, and wizards have Sleep for a good spell. Clerics and paladins have Bless for a good spell, and they have solid armor. If having a good spell 2 or 3 times a day is enough then spell casters in general do have that option.

I think low level warlock spells aren't impressive but it's the invocations we're looking for there.

Where I think casters generally fall short at low levels is the DC 13 save against their very limited spell slots.

Warlocks get origin feats as an invocation option.

Good cleric, druid, wizard spells that upcast are an option. Command, Chromatic Orb. Tashas is a warlock spell.

 

[Ashrym]

Warlocks get origin feats as an invocation option.

Good cleric, druid, wizard spells that upcast are an option. Command, Chromatic Orb. Tashas is a warlock spell.

Can't upcast yet at 2nd level so they're still relatively low DC single target spells. Fiendish Vigor is a fantastic source of thp at that level, though. ;-)

 

[Zardnaar]

Can't upcast yet at 2nd level so they're still relatively low DC single target spells. Fiendish Vigor is a fantastic source of thp at that level, though. ;-)

They can easily grab bless, faerie fire etc as well. And swap it next level.

2 spells per short rest, 2-3 spells 1/day from Druid/Wizard/Cleric and 4-9 extra cantrips. Level 2.

Wizards DO Suck (and all the other casters comparatively).

Warlock wins tier 1 imho not just level 2. Wizards dont "get good" until 6 or 10 (5.0 vs 5.5 or subclass).

 

[FrogReaver]

If we accept the premise that Entangle, Goodberry, medium armor, and shields makes a caster on par with the best level 2 martials wouldn't that lead us to rangers being the best of the best at those levels because they have that too and more?

Rangers don’t get Entangle in 2024. Otherwise I would have said yes!

Bards, sorcerers, and wizards have Sleep for a good spell. Clerics and paladins have Bless for a good spell, and they have solid armor. If having a good spell 2 or 3 times a day is enough then spell casters in general do have that option.

Sleep is extremely small aoe and does nothing on a successful save. Entangle creates difficult terrain in a decent aoe which can serve many purposes.

Sleep also has repeated saves, entangle requires an action to break free after the initial save.

Sleep is much lower value than entangle. IMO.

Bless isn’t a good level 1 spell at level 2. It’s okay, not good. You’re much better off using command, inflict wounds, guiding bolt, cure wounds or healing word in the early levels.

I think low level warlock spells aren't impressive but it's the invocations we're looking for there.

Agreed.

Where I think casters generally fall short at low levels is the DC 13 save against their very limited spell slots.

I think most level 1 save spells just aren’t that good at level 1. They can make great spells to use with low level slots later on, but by that time casters are being carried by their aoe control options and just using the low level slots when controlling a single specific target is really all that is needed.

 

[FrogReaver]

They can easily grab bless, faerie fire etc as well. And swap it next level.

2 spells per short rest, 2-3 spells 1/day from Druid/Wizard/Cleric and 4-9 extra cantrips. Level 2.

Wizards DO Suck (and all the other casters comparatively).

Warlock wins tier 1 imho not just level 2. Wizards dont "get good" until 6 or 10 (5.0 vs 5.5 or subclass).

I'd be grabbing Entangle and Goodberry

 

[Zardnaar]

Rangers don’t get Entangle in 2024. Otherwise I would have said yes!



Sleep is extremely small aoe and does nothing on a successful save. Entangle creates difficult terrain in a decent aoe which can serve many purposes.

Sleep also has repeated saves, entangle requires an action to break free after the initial save.

Sleep is much lower value than entangle. IMO.

Bless isn’t a good level 1 spell at level 2. It’s okay, not good. You’re much better off using command, inflict wounds, guiding bolt, cure wounds or healing word in the early levels.



Agreed.



I think most level 1 save spells just aren’t that good at level 1. They can make great spells to use with low level slots later on, but by that time casters are being carried by their aoe control options and just using the low level slots when controlling a single specific target is really all that is needed.

Command spam lvl 1 vs boss fight. Sigh.

CR 13 what's that wisdom save like. Command approach through wall of fire. Sigh....

 

[FrogReaver]

Command spam lvl 1 vs boss fight. Sigh.

CR 13 what's that wisdom save like. Command approach through wall of fire. Sigh....

There's not really a way to spam it at level 1 unless your whole party has it or something. But yea, by CR 13 you should have enough slots to spam it.

 

[Zardnaar]

There's not really a way to spam it at level 1 unless your whole party has it or something. But yea, by CR 13 you should have enough slots to spam it.

Cleric and glamor bard had it. The warlock did not sure about now.

Dragon Sorcerer also had it.

4/5 had it lol.

 

[FrogReaver]

Cleric and glamor bard had it. The warlock did not sure about now.

Dragon Sorcerer also had it.

4/5 had it lol.

Any single target control spell is like that when you get multiple casters with it. We did similar at a bit lower levels with Tasha's Hideous Laughter and two 2014 Wizards. It became known as Tasha's Hideous Dragon Slayer. First Dragon we encountered proceeded to fail all the saves it made against it till about round 3-4.

 

[Zardnaar]

Any single target control spell is like that when you get multiple casters with it. We did similar at a bit lower levels with Tasha's Hideous Laughter and two 2014 Wizards. It became known as Tasha's Hideous Dragon Slayer. First Dragon we encountered proceeded to fail all the saves it made against it till about round 3-4.

Yeah. Tashas got upgraded. Can now upcast and twin it for cheap.

5E design assumptions neeed to change around saves scaling or magic resistance upgraded to greater magic resistance .

Spellcasters generally suck at damage martials got boosted. Meta is control and have martisls beat the opponents up imho.