D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[BenjaminPey]

And the party inside sees the goblins doing this and reaches outside the hut to brush them away, or just, I don't know, steps outside to kill the goblins? Only the caster has to stay inside for the duration, and it doesn't obscure their vision.

But if you fight the goblins before resting, there's no problem, is there?

 

[tetrasodium]

Goblins playing ewok with LTH as an excuse to call down powers monsters find when calling down the insurmountable Divine rage found at the far edge of dm fiat is an absurd idea likely to have so little impact I have wonder if anyone suggesting it has ever made it past the lowest levels of play. That or it was a slip of the finger and they accidentally transposed a couple letters by typing "goblins" in place of something like "polymorphed pit fiends"... That last one happens all the time I'm sure, probably just a case of autocarrot

 

[Zardnaar]

Martials get their real power from magic items, weapons & armor especially. Given. Suitable allotment of those a level 5+ or 11+ martial can easily keep up and eventually exceed pretty much any caster but warlock due to getting multiplicative returns most every round.

They beat warlocks without magic weapons now.

Warlocks now bottom of the heap most levels.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Goblins playing ewok with LTH as an excuse to call down powers monsters find when calling down the insurmountable Divine rage found at the far edge of dm fiat is an absurd idea likely to have so little impact I have wonder if anyone suggesting it has ever made it past the lowest levels of play. That or it was a slip of the finger and they accidentally transposed a couple letters by typing "goblins" in place of something like "polymorphed pit fiends"... That last one happens all the time I'm sure, probably just a case of autocarrot

I once accidentally made an encounter slightly harder than intended when I by mistake added four Orcuses instead of four orcs.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, I am not convinced that it is particularly realistic that most enemies would have a ton of more monsters to summon on short notice. And if they do, then in most realistic scenarios they're enemies that you'd later face anyway. A difference between the power of nearly depleted party and full power one is massive, and it does not seem realistic to me that in most situations the enemies could match that in eight hours.

It's nowhere near most. As long as it happens sometimes, that's enough to keep the players from engaging the 5 MWD.

 

[Minigiant]

It's nowhere near most. As long as it happens sometimes, that's enough to keep the players from engaging the 5 MWD.

The 5MWD is just a consequence of not converting D&D into a different paradigm at higher levels

When D&D says the players become Heroes of the Realm, the enemies most be Villains of the Realm. DMs can just spit out random monsters. If players think enemies have no back up or resources, they will treat enemies like they don't have back up and resources. Mumm-Ra, Rita Repulsa, and Darth Vader have tons of resources, power personnel, and the means and motivation to put pressure on their enemies.

Past level 7 or so, enemy planning is more important than most DMs anticipate. You either need enemies to have motivations that cause players to actively attempt to stop them or give enemies the power resources to forcefully involve themselves with the players.

I think this is one of the reasons why many DMS and many of the newer games do not go to high levels. Half your enemies have to be massive threats or tied to an organization which is.

This is also why after a certain level many "dungeons" are are straight up strongholds or a race to beat small armies to something.

 

[Maxperson]

The 5MWD is just a consequence of not converting D&D into a different paradigm at higher levels

When D&D says the players become Heroes of the Realm, the enemies most be Villains of the Realm. DMs can just spit out random monsters. If players think enemies have no back up or resources, they will treat enemies like they don't have back up and resources. Mumm-Ra, Rita Repulsa, and Darth Vader have tons of resources, power personnel, and the means and motivation to put pressure on their enemies.

Past level 7 or so, enemy planning is more important than most DMs anticipate. You either need enemies to have motivations that cause players to actively attempt to stop them or give enemies the power resources to forcefully involve themselves with the players.

I think this is one of the reasons why many DMS and many of the newer games do not go to high levels. Half your enemies have to be massive threats or tied to an organization which is.

This is also why after a certain level many "dungeons" are are straight up strongholds or a race to beat small armies to something.

That's a different problem. A lot of people don't shift gears at higher levels, so issues arise. The 5 MWD, though, starts at level 1 if the DM just sits his world in stasis while the group rests.

 

[Scott Christian]

The core issue is for many monsters, they cannot realistically generate equal power as a fully rested party of adventurers to convert their Easy encounter to a Deadly encounter without setting help.

And most settings don't.

3 goblins cannot find 50 goblins in 6 hours and bring them back in 2 more hours after their cave is fireballed.
2 bandits cannot return 10 other bandits, 3 captains, 2 bandit mages, and a bandit lord in 8 hours.
1 ogre cannot spontaneous summon 3 more ogres and a ogre magi.

I don't know. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you think goblins only live in clans of three, and no other goblins within three hours can be found, then we just disagree. That, to me, sounds like a very odd world. A goblin, especially a greedy one, could go persuade many goblins to come to their aid if there was a bunch of treasure wielding adventurers trapped in a bubble that was about to burst. As for bandits, maybe they can, maybe they can't. It depends on the size of the bandit camp or if they belong to a thieves' guild. Again, the adventurers' treasure, and maybe even a ransom, might make it worthwhile. And ogres, I agree. They are more of a wandering creature. But, what about these creatures? What if the party meant them harm, and used LTH in a place they were spotted near their lair? Could they do something?
Aarakocra
Aboleth
Angel, Deva, Planetar, Solar
Animated armor, animated sword, animated rug
Ankheg
Azer
That is just the A's of the MM, and seven out of eleven can indeed make life miserable for the party. And I conceded the point that against most "dungeony" monsters, it is awesome protection. Almost too good? Yes, until you look at all the downfalls. (Although, I would hate to have a group of basilisks outside the hut forcing everyone to just do saving throws. )

But most DMs populated their settings with idiots, beasts, and martials. Idiots and beasts are dumb. Martials can't nova and 5e designers were afraid to allow martial to supernaturally do logistics.


This is why every thief in my setting is a member of a guild, every raider from a nearby horde, every warrior and brute a member of a nearby army which teleportation access.

Because if a monster group isn't caster heavy, a party can safely nova down a huge chunk of them knowing either they can't replenish faster than them or the DM has to commit to putting casters all over their world.

This is why the "grounded low magic settings" rarely make sense at height levels in modern D&D and fantasy RPGs.

I guess I just have a hard time understanding the setting people are playing in. Forgotten Realms is supposedly the most popular, and in it, most dungeons or quests have intelligent bad guys that want the adventurers dead.

And this is also pretending that narrative pacing has zero effect on the players. (I have never seen a group not respond to it, such as in Hoard of the Dragon Queen or The Rise of Tiamat.)

The point is, with narrative setting the pace sometimes, intelligent foes (which are everywhere), magic wielding enemies, and homefield advantage because it's their home being invaded, I just don't see how anyone can think that a group of players could do it to be fresh for every battle. It is literally impossible if the DM uses any fidelity. One or two bad outcomes from using the spell in an obvious dangerous area would prevent it from ever happening again. And those outcomes, they would be logical if the world felt real.

 

[Minigiant]

don't know. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you think goblins only live in clans of three, and no other goblins within three hours can be found, then we just disagree. That, to me, sounds like a very odd world

It's not a goblin clan of 3. It's the remaining 10 goblins after the party goes into the goblin cave, novas 20 of them down, then runs away to rest.

The surviving goblins have 8 hours to gather resources to combat an adventuring party that already killed the plurality of the goblin warriors a few hours ago.

 

[BenjaminPey]

So the characters decimated the clan in a huge battle against 20 of them. Battling three more would be inconsequential, and the most logical outcome is the remaining three flee for their lives (and maybe become better antagonists later). Characters won the day. The rest is well deserved.