D&D 5E (2024) The value of Sap Mastery

[FrogReaver]

I looked at SAP Mastery and I found the following to be good estimates of it's value in the following situations.

1 incoming attack ~62% damage taken
2 incoming attacks ~81% damage taken
3 incoming attacks ~87% damage taken
4 incoming attacks ~90% damage taken

Note: These are rules of thumb as the actual values can vary a bit depending on accuracy and advantage/disadvantage of the PC and enemy, but they still were close enough together that I thought the rule of thumbs above wouldn't be misleading.

Altogether I expect this entails that equipping a shield while also having sap mastery likely decreases damage taken very significantly. Probably by >30% in most situations (I'll try to compute a tighter estimate later). In short, sap+shield likely increase defense enough to compensate for missing out on the offensive impact of GWM and a Greatsword/Greataxe in many circumstances, including multi-attack ones. It also leaves the feat slot open, and helps even when the enemy decides to attack your ally, both of which are very nice.

I've included a sample chart. I actually computed this for different variations of advantage/disadvantage and even for 1 PC sap attack.

 

[FrogReaver]

So I did a similar comparison with sap and a shield vs no sap and no shield.

1 incoming attack ~45% damage taken
2 incoming attacks ~61% damage taken
3 incoming attacks ~67% damage taken
4 incoming attacks ~69% damage taken

The corresponding EHP values (probably a bit more comparable to DPR increases)
1 incoming attack ~ x2.21
2 incoming attacks ~ x1.63
3 incoming attacks ~ x1.50
4 incoming attacks ~ x1.44

For comparison a level 5 reckless attacking Barbarian does ~60% more damage with a greatsword and GWM compared to a 1d8 weapon with sap.

Fore comparison a level 5 reckless attacking Barbarian Berserker (2d6 damage bonus on reckless attack) does ~43% more damage with a greatsword and GWM compared to a 1d8 weapon with sap.

Note: Having only a shield itself and no sap on this chart can be estimated at about 80% damage taken.

Example of a sample chart is below.

 

[bedir than]

Sap only impacts a single attack role by the opponent.
A multi attack PC should distribute Sap amongst a swarm since the same opponent can only be hit with it once

 

[FrogReaver]

Sap only impacts a single attack role by the opponent.

Correct. This is being factored in.

A multi attack PC should distribute Sap amongst a swarm since the same opponent can only be hit with it once

Possibly. There's still the question of focus fire potentially being better.

In any case, this is not currently being factored in and would improve the defensive numbers especially for the higher accuracy scenarios.

 

[ECMO3]

I looked at SAP Mastery and I found the following to be good estimates of it's value in the following situations.

1 incoming attack ~62% damage taken
2 incoming attacks ~81% damage taken
3 incoming attacks ~87% damage taken
4 incoming attacks ~90% damage taken

Note: These are rules of thumb as the actual values can vary a bit depending on accuracy and advantage/disadvantage of the PC and enemy, but they still were close enough together that I thought the rule of thumbs above wouldn't be misleading.

Altogether I expect this entails that equipping a shield while also having sap mastery likely decreases damage taken very significantly. Probably by >30% in most situations (I'll try to compute a tighter estimate later). In short, sap+shield likely increase defense enough to compensate for missing out on the offensive impact of GWM and a Greatsword/Greataxe in many circumstances, including multi-attack ones. It also leaves the feat slot open, and helps even when the enemy decides to attack your ally, both of which are very nice.

I've included a sample chart. I actually computed this for different variations of advantage/disadvantage and even for 1 PC sap attack.

View attachment 420512

It varies widely with number of attacks you get, number of attacks enemies get and the number of enemies you are fighting.

Using sap requires a lot of situational tactical application. For example do you focus fire on one bad guy so you can bring him down or do you split your attacks to sap multiple enemies.

Also it is much better on a very high AC character with interception than it is on a low AC character.

 

[FrogReaver]

It varies widely with number of attacks you get, number of attacks enemies get and the number of enemies you are fighting.

I wouldn’t say widely, but you seem to mostly be restating what my post stated? Is that intentended?

Using sap requires a lot of situational tactical application. For example do you focus fire on one bad guy so you can bring him down or do you split your attacks to sap multiple enemies.

I’d suggest just focus firing in 99% of situations.

Also it is much better on a very high AC character with interception than it is on a low AC character.

Not sure why interception style matters?

And while it is a bit better on lower AC characters, permanent AC normally stays within ~3 points min to max for a given level for a given class. That tends to make the spread fairly tight in actual practice.

 

[ECMO3]

I wouldn’t say widely, but you seem to mostly be restating what my post stated? Is that intentended?


I’d suggest just focus firing in 99% of situations.

No not even close. I would agree in most situations, the goal is to bring one down as soon as possible, but that does not mean an individual player focusing fire.

For example, a simple scenarios - me and one ally are fighting two 15hp Hobgoblins in melee and we have a 70% chance of hitting them. I do 8 damage on average and my buddy does 10. If initiative is me, ally, Hobs and I hit one of the Hobgoblin with my first of 2 attacks. If I hit one of the hobs on my 1st attack with sap it is always going to be statistically better to attack the second hob as opposed to focusing on the first unless our AC is very low.

Different scenario - we are fighting 8hp Orcs, I hit one of them 7 damage, he has 1 hit point left but he is sapped, but I miss on my second attack. Again it is usually statistically better for the Barbarian to attack the other Orc

Not sure why interception style matters?

Because it cuts the damage to you or more importantly a lower AC ally if they attack and hit either of you. It stacks very well with sap, especially if you have lower AC allies who will be in melee with you.

And while it is a bit better on lower AC characters, permanent AC normally stays within ~3 points min to max for a given level for a given class.

This is not true in most games I play, especially when magic items become available. Also there are generally different classes at the table.

Right now my 7th level Plate and Shield Fighter/Warlock is sporting a 24 or 29 with Shield (shield +1, ring of protection, cloak of protection). The two Barbarians in the party are at 20 (unarmored defense and Bracers of Defense) and 19 (Scale +1).

Also 3 points AC will cut the number of hits by 50% or more at the high end and by 80% or more when sapped.

 

[TravDoc42]

I love the analysis!! Math is not my strong suit, so every time I see people on here doing analysis like this, it blows me away!

Also, I recall a post WoTC made promoting weapons mastery properties before the new PHB came out. It said something like "Rangers can now use sap!" and I recall thinking "of course they can, they spend 99% of their time in the woods, I'm sure Rangers would find use for sap!"

 

[Zardnaar]

Saps interesting. I haven't seen it used enough vs nick, vex, topple,graze and cleave.

Its biggest problem is its defensive and in D&D offensive generaly wins. Dead>sap.

Sword and board I would be looking at it especially with Sentinel.

 

[FrogReaver]

Saps interesting. I haven't seen it used enough vs nick, vex, topple,graze and cleave.

Its biggest problem is its defensive and in D&D offensive generaly wins. Dead>sap.

Sword and board I would be looking at it especially with Sentinel.

I’m really liking the look of it on a berserker barbarian or vengeance Paladin. Something that can add quite bit of damage while sap and the shield shore up defenses.

One thing I hate about 5e martials is that outside a little extra hp, the casters usually get better ac (Druid/Cleric with an actual shield) or situationally better (Wizard/sorcerer with shield spell).