D&D General Forgotten Realms: Real World Gods Still Present in the Old Empires

[Voadam]

What he said was: "no part of my original Realms was based on any direct real-world analogues"

But what he did was a mish-mash of many direct real-world analogues.

I think he was referring to countries as not analogues.

He used a bunch of deities from Deities and Demigods from the beginning including a selection of ones from real world pantheons (Celtic, Finnish, Norse, Central American) slightly modified real world ones (Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian), DDG ones from novels (Lankhmar and Melnibonean), and the DDG D&D originals (Lolth) plus Narnia and originals.

He sold the setting early on and in the first edition campaign setting boxed set, the first full big setting product, they changed Moonshaes to be Douglas Niles version from his novels with the Celtic flavor and Norse raiders and the Goddess who got turned into a local form of Chauntea.

Thay and Mulhorand were originally closer to a vague fantasy Conan Stygia than full on actual ancient Egyptian imports is my understanding when they started in his 60s fantasy novel writing and Thay I think became more specifically D&D evil magic user focused as D&D became a thing and he began running the Realms as a D&D setting.

 

[Yaarel]

The feelings at the thought that people really prefers this over what we had (a place full of alien things and ruins and plots to adventure that are different from the rest of humanoland Faerûn) is making it hard for me not to think about what was lost. Like, it seems in D&D only humans and elves are allowed to have kingdoms, no matter if that kingdom is a hell-hole...

It is a good point.


Even so, the Dragonborn city that survives remains impressive. Compare the Drow city Menzoberranzan, which ChatGPT says is about a population 28,000 (slightly larger than Neverwinter). A city can be an impressive setting.

 

[Azzy]

The Adama Is more soft Polythiesm then Monothiesm.

Which sounds about right.

 

[Epic Meepo]

They counted them as Mulan im the 2014 PHB IIRC, so that's what sticks in my mind!

Rashemi had their own entry, but it was right after the Mulan entry and had a header that looked a bit like a sub-header. That page layout wasn't doing the Rashemi any favors! It was probably part of a nefarious Thayan plot to claim ownership of Rashemen.

 

[Epic Meepo]

They should have reduced Tymanther instead, just like the SCAG suggested, instead on wiping it out for nothing. We could have had Tymanther in the south, Hell-Unther in the middle and Free-Unther in the north.

Isn't that more or less what they did? As of the last novel set in Tymanther, the kingdom only had two major cities. At least one of them is still standing. So Tymanther lost one major population center, but it gained an ally with one major population center in the north. That's a net loss of zero major population centers among the forces fighting against imperial Unther.

 

[Zeromaru X]

Isn't that more or less what they did?

In this new book? Nope. The SCAG mentioned the second city, Djerad Kethendi, as well as the Ash Lake and some settlements around it. And most importantly, Tymanther was still existing as a political entinty (ie. the country).

The new book is categorical. It literally says "Tymanther is no more" (in the dragonborn species entry). The dragonborn got reduced to just a single city (Djerad Thymar, that for some reason is now carved on the side of a mountain, when all previous lore said it was a pyramid-city near the aforementioned lake) and some villages. The Ash Lake and Djerad Kethendi aren't mentioned and not even shown in the map (they just disappeared). And worse, the dragonborn now live in stlarning Calimshan (and consider it their country, worthy of dying for it, when there is no previous lore of dragonborn ever living in that place, so antithetical to their mindset, because before this book was Disneyland for slavers).

So, no. Is nowhere near to what they did.

but it gained an ally with one major population center in the north.

The book never states Messemprar is an ally of Djerad Thymar (it can be surmised, but it's not stated, so shouldn't be taken as a fact). In fact, what the book does state is that Messemprar is in a desperate battle to avoid being wiped out by Gilgeam. So, Gilgeam is this super almighty Sauron that hasn't conquered all because... reasons.

And if we go by implications, well, all the implications of Unther being a hell on Earth, of the blood splattered on the streets of Unthalass because Gilgeam allows no dissent, and all the atrocities the army of Unther commit... well, let's say I wonder how the dragonborn of Djerad Thymar avoided total extermination.

Yeah, I did what someone suggested and went to read the book (or well, just the relevant sections, because I don't have the book. A friend kindly showed me screenshots of the Old Empires section). I still don't understand why people prefers this to what we had. Like, I know things should have a certain level of tension and a bad guy doing injustice to have adventures in, but there should be also a place that is worth fighting for. The dragonborn fans lost that place, and we have to be grateful they gave us a single city (changed from what it previously was) and some shoddy copy of the Sultana's dragonborn army in buggering Calimshan...

And yes, this may feel nitpicky... But I have admitted it since the start. I don't like what they did.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Isn't that more or less what they did? As of the last novel set in Tymanther, the kingdom only had two major cities. At least one of them is still standing. So Tymanther lost one major population center, but it gained an ally with one major population center in the north. That's a net loss of zero major population centers among the forces fighting against imperial Unther.

Their are no ruins where Djerad Kethendi stood, what is more likely then them destroying it is that they simply forgot it existed in the first place. See it wasn't on the original 4e map, only the Capital was, the only map Djerad Kethendi appeared on, was a novels map for the Brimstone Angels series, never a TTRPG product to knowledge, so when looking at maps from previous editions to develop this map, they would never have seen Djerad Kethendi.

So I suggest just assuming its still there and that this is just a simple oversight.

 

[Parmandur]

Their are no ruins where Djerad Kethendi stood, what is more likely then them destroying it is that they simply forgot it existed in the first place. See it wasn't on the original 4e map, only the Capital was, the only map Djerad Kethendi appeared on, was a novels map for the Brimstone Angels series, never a TTRPG product to knowledge, so when looking at maps from previous editions to develop this map, they would never have seen Djerad Kethendi.

So I suggest just assuming its still there and that this is just a simple oversight.

Yeah, honestly a perfectly valid interpretation.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

In this new book? Nope. The SCAG mentioned the second city, Djerad Kethendi, as well as the Ash Lake and some settlements around it. And most importantly, Tymanther was still existing as a political entinty (ie. the country).

The new book is categorical. It literally says "Tymanther is no more" (in the dragonborn species entry). The dragonborn got reduced to just a single city (Djerad Thymar, that for some reason is now carved on the side of a mountain, when all previous lore said it was a pyramid-city near the aforementioned lake) and some villages. The Ash Lake and Djerad Kethendi aren't mentioned and not even shown in the map (they just disappeared). And worse, the dragonborn now live in stlarning Calimshan (and consider it their country, worthy of dying for it, when there is no previous lore of dragonborn ever living in that place, so antithetical to their mindset, because before this book was Disneyland for slavers).

So, no. Is nowhere near to what they did.



The book never states Messemprar is an ally of Djerad Thymar (it can be surmised, but it's not stated, so shouldn't be taken as a fact). In fact, what the book does state is that Messemprar is in a desperate battle to avoid being wiped out by Gilgeam. So, Gilgeam is this super almighty Sauron that hasn't conquered all because... reasons.

And if we go by implications, well, all the implications of Unther being a hell on Earth, of the blood splattered on the streets of Unthalass because Gilgeam allows no dissent, and all the atrocities the army of Unther commit... well, let's say I wonder how the dragonborn of Djerad Thymar avoided total extermination.

Yeah, I did what someone suggested and went to read the book (or well, just the relevant sections, because I don't have the book. A friend kindly showed me screenshots of the Old Empires section). I still don't understand why people prefers this to what we had. Like, I know things should have a certain level of tension and a bad guy doing injustice to have adventures in, but there should be also a place that is worth fighting for. The dragonborn fans lost that place, and we have to be grateful they gave us a single city (changed from what it previously was) and some shoddy copy of the Sultana's dragonborn army in buggering Calimshan...

And yes, this may feel nitpicky... But I have admitted it since the start. I don't like what they did.

The answer to both your questions is Divine intervention, Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and Selune.

Notice in the art is the Air Genasi Chosen of Selune is in Messemprar.

 

[Zeromaru X]

So I suggest just assuming its still there and that this is just a simple oversight.

Or we can assume they destroyed it for good, or sent it to Abeir (alongside the lake), etc... Given time, I can even came up with a fix that I actually like. The point is, however, that I'm aware of the reason why they didn't include it in the map (most likely because, as you say, there was scarcely anything about the city and they either didn't knew it existed or actively decided to remove it). And that for me, is what doesn't allow me to enjoy this: I'm pretty aware of the truth. At least, not for now. Perhaps, over time I can get over this.

Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and Selune.

Enlil is a jobber. He was so weak by the end of the novels, I don't think he had the power to pull that one. Nanna-Sin was not even a god by the end of the novels, just an immortal dragon turtle. And Selûne... may be she do has the power for this, but she never cared for the dragonborn. She just saved them by accident and left them to their own devices as soon as she did what she had to do in the area.

Again, knowing the lore is what makes me unable to enjoy the easy fixes people is coming up with, because I have an idea of the Doylist explanation for things. I need time to process this, and came over with fixes I like and consider logical and lore compliant.