Why do we need thieves??

So with a great deal of systems, I see a dedicated profession of thief. I would argue the need on the basis that, thieves do not have special powers, just skills. You could play a warrior, and rob people, take advantage of someone you caught off guard, a servant could walk away with important documents, or a locksmith could open locks. Debate me, and if you like thieves, what do you like about them?
A significant part of the player base like them. It feeds from movies books etc. just because non thieves can steal doesn't make the idea of organized thieves (AKA the DND Mafioso). Invalid. Normal people steal secrets all thetume does that invalidate the idea of intelligence agencies or corporate counter espionage teams.

Anyone can pick up a sword and stab someone. Do we really need the profession if Warrior? . Your thin logic cold be used to justify a classless game. Perhaps something like GURPs is what you are drifting tówards
 

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What is thin about it? Why do we need the profession of warrior to be a labelled game mechanic element, instead of a result of the way someone designs their character?

Why should every instantiation of a character concept have the same set of features, differentiated only by specific deviations from that base?
 

What is thin about it? Why do we need the profession of warrior to be a labelled game mechanic element, instead of a result of the way someone designs their character?

Why should every instantiation of a character concept have the same set of features, differentiated only by specific deviations from that base?
Because that's the game most people want. There are other games that do what you seem to want. None of them are as popular. Most people in my experience want templates that reduce their choices. Thus..warrior, wizard,thief etc. why reinvent this game when others do what you want already.
 

Except I was around when the thief came into existance, and other that whatever they called secret strike back then, it was nothing but skills. Seriously. There was nothing else distinct about it, and it was, when if first arrived, unique in that way.

Basically, I don't see your characterization of them as anything but a high end expression of skills in that area. And that was absolutely the way they worked initially, to the degree they worked at all.
I was too. "Backstab" was the original term, I believe.

And it was absolutely an expression of skills. Importantly, it was the only class that had skills rather than powers. (Hide in Shadows vs. Turn Undead) No one else had skills. If anyone else wanted to do things it was a 1 in 6 chance*, better if there were extenuating circumstances. These skills were also watered down in successive editions. Climb Sheer Surfaces became Climb Walls. Anyone could climb walls; the character had to remove all metal armor, be unencumbered, and had a bonus to their d6 roll if they had a rope. Thieves could freeclimb even with their backpack and gear. The other skills were similarly advantaged in theme.

And, as you note, as the class system transitioned to adding an initial engine-wide skill system, powers were added to the classes to strengthen their niche and archetype. So, in D&D there is more than a simple skill package to typify a "thief". The powers available might be unique to PC thieves, and NPCs only have the skill package.

I think which is why I disagree with the concept of "skill-monkey", especially in a class-based system. The Thief isn't a jack-of-trades character. They are the class that is supposed to be the best at stealth in an urban environment. I extend that to being the class most adept at urban environments: moving through, finding people, establishing networks, knowing who owes whom, &c. What I found to be an excellent JoT character is the Akashic from The Diamond Throne that Monte Cook initially published (now owned by someone else). They are the "skill-monkey" people want.

So, to sum up, if you are looking just at skills to describe a character, then, yes, there isn't much to differentiate different skill packages such as warrior captain, cat burglar, herbalist, woodsman, &c. If you are looking at a class system, then, no, there is more to describe a particular class than the skills, it's the attendant class abilities. And, if the class in question is the only one with skills, the differentiation isn't the "skill package". The skills are the powers.



* This is why thief skills started at 15-20% in AD&D. Succeeding 1 in 6 is a 16.7% chance. Thieves started as good as anyone else, but since a percentile system was used they could more easily and with finer granularly increase in ability with increasing level. Although that was only with humans. A group of elvish wizards or halfling fighters in leather could surprise a monster 4 in 6. A human thief had to be 9th level to reach that peak!

PS: I have played in a skill-less D&D where there was only seven classes tied to the attributes. Fighter, Magic-user, Cleric,
Skirmisher, Monk, Bard, (Elf-taught FTR/MU with a unique name I forget). All "skill checks" were tied to the prime requisite, roll 3-5d6 to match or lower. Anyone could try to sneak, but the skirmisher rolled 3 dice to the other classes 4. A wizard trying to sneak rolled 5 dice.

NB: One of the original expressions of the thief submitted to the Strategic Review had thief abilities expressed in times per day, following a similar mechanic as magic-users. Gary went with a skill cluster for whatever reason, probably Dave-influenced..
 

Indeed, that's why the most common sort of post about dungeons and dragons is people talking about how they ignored the rules to do something fun, followed by arguments about rules that make no sense or are ambiguous to the point of being nonsensical. Because it does what they want.
 

Yes, it is a package that you add to and subtract from with abandon. The mutability of D&D and Traveller are the reasons why they are my favorite games. Took me a while to realize that, actually.
 

And it was absolutely an expression of skills. Importantly, it was the only class that had skills rather than powers.

In this sense/context, how is a "skill" different from a "power" that isn't just (slightly) different mechanics? Is it just that there's a table of percentages that increase with level, instead of a fixed percentage (simplified on a die)? By that metric aren't saving throws also skills?

I'm curious about how to categorize these things in ways that aren't just alternate ways of rolling dice, so that here is an unambiguous distinction between words like "skill" and "power". The only one that I can think of that feels truly meaningful would be the distinction between:
  1. Actions that anybody can attempt, although some builds/classes have a better chance of success (attacking with a weapon, sneaking past a guard), versus...
  2. Actions that only some builds/classes can even attempt, or can attempt with a >0% chance of success, for people who want to be purists about action declarations (cast a spell, druid shapechange).
And there might be some things of type 2 that are subclasses of type 1. E.g., anybody can attempt to pick a lock, but only those with certain powers can pick a magical lock.

Anybody else have a mechanically unambiguous definition of the difference between "skill" and "power"?
 

What is thin about it? Why do we need the profession of warrior to be a labelled game mechanic element, instead of a result of the way someone designs their character?

Well, at the end, because a lot of people like class systems with their baked in niche protection. Whether you prefer a class system approach, an individual skill approach, or some hybrid thereof can't, in the end, be anything but preference informed by your priorities.
 


Just wanted you to know, @Baron Opal II that I had a somewhat longish response to your post (agreeing with a few things, disagreeing with some others) that somehow got nuked by a combination of the board software and some sort of misclick that I lack the werewithal to try and reconstruct. I'll just again note that most of the things thieves did arrived too late in the day to assume their skills made things exclusive to them (in particular, if things like their "climb" skill was supposed to be superior to what people were letting other types do in some fashion, it'd needed to have been spelled out in far better detail than it was in Greyhawk, and that probably applied to some of the stealth elements too). As such, it at best ended up in a lot of overlapping method-of-resolution (even if the other versions of that were largely ad-hoc and varied).
 

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