Why do we need thieves??

[Thomas Shey]

In this sense/context, how is a "skill" different from a "power" that isn't just (slightly) different mechanics? Is it just that there's a table of percentages that increase with level, instead of a fixed percentage (simplified on a die)? By that metric aren't saving throws also skills?

I'm curious about how to categorize these things in ways that aren't just alternate ways of rolling dice, so that here is an unambiguous distinction between words like "skill" and "power". The only one that I can think of that feels truly meaningful would be the distinction between:

1. Actions that anybody can attempt, although some builds/classes have a better chance of success (attacking with a weapon, sneaking past a guard), versus...
2. Actions that only some builds/classes can even attempt, or can attempt with a >0% chance of success, for people who want to be purists about action declarations (cast a spell, druid shapechange).

And there might be some things of type 2 that are subclasses of type 1. E.g., anybody can attempt to pick a lock, but only those with certain powers can pick a magical lock.

Anybody else have a mechanically unambiguous definition of the difference between "skill" and "power"?

You can make a distinction between things that simply "work" (in that if there is a resolution roll associated with them, they are modifiers to how the situation resolves rather than whether it resolves at all). The early thief backstab was actually a pretty good example here; you had to still roll a hit (but you'd have had to do so anyway) but the extra damage just applied automatically once the conditions occured (hitting successfully when attacking from behind and (presumably) unobserved.) Many MU spells land in this category too, far as it goes.

 

[Baron Opal II]

In this sense/context, how is a "skill" different from a "power" that isn't just (slightly) different mechanics? Is it just that there's a table of percentages that increase with level, instead of a fixed percentage (simplified on a die)? By that metric aren't saving throws also skills?

That's a good question.

I would say, in the context of OD&D and AD&D, that "Thief Skills" aren't skills per se. They are the abilities tied to a specific class. Elves and halflings have abilities that can mimic Hide in Shadows and Move Silently, but they aren't the same. Or, perhaps more accurately, thieves can mimic certain elvish and halfling racial abilities. So, yes, in those early editions these collections of abilities are their "powers". If we define "skills" as something everyone has the potential to do, those would be the actions resolved with the d6.

Are saving throws "skills"? Perhaps. They qualify in my mind as they are something that "everyone" can do. Different classes have different capabilities that change with level, but anyone can attempt a saving throw against poison. Haven't thought about it in that manner before.

Starting with 3e, they are definitely skills that are available to all classes. Thieves, rangers, and bards (?) are able to purchase certain skills at a discount. Other classes are able to purchase other skills, class and theme appropriate, at a discount, such as wizards purchasing ranks in Arcana skill.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That's a good question.

I would say, in the context of OD&D and AD&D, that "Thief Skills" aren't skills per se. They are the abilities tied to a specific class. Elves and halflings have abilities that can mimic Hide in Shadows and Move Silently, but they aren't the same. Or, perhaps more accurately, thieves can mimic certain elvish and halfling racial abilities. So, yes, in those early editions these collections of abilities are their "powers". If we define "skills" as something everyone has the potential to do, those would be the actions resolved with the d6.

Are saving throws "skills"? Perhaps. They qualify in my mind as they are something that "everyone" can do. Different classes have different capabilities that change with level, but anyone can attempt a saving throw against poison. Haven't thought about it in that manner before.

Starting with 3e, they are definitely skills that are available to all classes. Thieves, rangers, and bards (?) are able to purchase certain skills at a discount. Other classes are able to purchase other skills, class and theme appropriate, at a discount, such as wizards purchasing ranks in Arcana skill.

Just as a side note, the first version of the ranger I saw (admittedly in the SR rather than an actual book, but the TSR people seemed to treat those as at least semi-official classes at the time) had Tracking done as a thief style percentage skill too.

(I also seriously, seriously doubt most people were assuming at least Climbing only had a 1 in 6 chance of success. I can't say I saw that one done that way even once back in the day).

 

[Bill Zebub]

You can make a distinction between things that simply "work" (in that if there is a resolution roll associated with them, they are modifiers to how the situation resolves rather than whether it resolves at all). The early thief backstab was actually a pretty good example here; you had to still roll a hit (but you'd have had to do so anyway) but the extra damage just applied automatically once the conditions occured (hitting successfully when attacking from behind and (presumably) unobserved.) Many MU spells land in this category too, far as it goes.

Oh, that's interesting. I see two distinctions here:

• Backstab isn't a distinct action declaration, it's a modifier to an action that anybody can attempt
• Although the attack itself may fail, the Backstab is automatic.

So in that sense it's similar to, say, Barbarian Reckless Attack in 5e: it's not a separate action declaration but it modifies attacks/defense, and it always works (in the sense that it always applies advantage/disadvantage).

Still, I think that's more a language tweak to what I wrote, in that it's bigger than just "action declarations". Reckless Attack and Backstab are still "powers" and not "skills" (if we are using those two words to distinguish these things) in that only those who explicitly have the ability can invoke them.

In fact, you could say that "the Backstab power improves the thief's Melee skill".

 

[Baron Opal II]

Just wanted you to know, @Baron Opal II that I had a somewhat longish response to your post (agreeing with a few things, disagreeing with some others) that somehow got nuked by a combination of the board software and some sort of misclick that I lack the werewithal to try and reconstruct.

Curses! I'm sure I would have found the continuing expression of your point of view interesting.

I certainly agree that vagueness and interpretation was the order of the day in D&D, especially early on.

For example: I was sure there was a rule in AD&D or OD&D that said something like "If the player wants their character to do something different, it works on a roll of 1 on a d6. +1 if they have the right equipment, training, or situation. The best chance is 4 in 6." I seached all my books, and Holmes D&D a few years ago and can't find it. I don't know if that was a house rule I made up, something Gary mentioned at a convention, a rule a friend had that made sense, Dragon article, or what. It worked pretty well, though.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Curses! I'm sure I would have found the continuing expression of your point of view interesting.

I certainly agree that vagueness and interpretation was the order of the day in D&D, especially early on.

For example: I was sure there was a rule in AD&D or OD&D that said something like "If the player wants their character to do something different, it works on a roll of 1 on a d6. +1 if they have the right equipment, training, or situation. The best chance is 4 in 6." I seached all my books, and Holmes D&D a few years ago and can't find it. I don't know if that was a house rule I made up, something Gary mentioned at a convention, a rule a friend had that made sense, Dragon article, or what. It worked pretty well, though.

It was probably an extrapolation from the various suprise and secret door checks that were applied in various situation. I would not be at all surprised if that sort of approach was used for some of the less expected things people would have probably tried to have characters do prior to the Thief (say, picking a lock). With something like Climbing I saw it much more commonly resolved as a Dex based check (as in, roll equal to or under your Dexterity value on a D20. I imagine hiding and moving quietly (if they were even treated distinctly) prior to the thief were done somewhere in between since they seem like something that doesn't automatically require training to have a better than 16% chance, but not something as routinely done as climbing may well have been.

This was, of course, the problem with the thief; by the time it came along it was, in part, trying to resolve a problem people had often already come up with their own solutions for, and ones that were fairly unlikely to look like the values on the Thief in at least some of the cases.

(Now I'm trying to remember if there was any standard method of dealing with swimming at all prior to NWP and some of the specific outdoor related suppliments...)