Why do we need thieves??

[1QD]

People have asked you, in more than one thread, to say a bit about your system. And you seem very hesitant to do so. I think if you want people to be eager to try your system, you need to tell them something about it.

For instance, how does the framing of scenes/establishing of situations work in your system?

My first post in this community came off as spam. It was communicated to me that people were less interested in hearing about my advertising....er uh...game, and that I should contribute more to the community. I however am mostly a hermit. Online communities are new ground for me, and I have stumbled several times during this process.

As a result I tried to change gears, instead of lowkey advertising, I shifted to reviewing responses, some as legit interest and others based on interest of how the community feels about new directions I have made within my own system.

To answer you question I would say as follows. I often have players write a small background about their character, learn a bit about what they envision. My world has a decently long history and therefor i can tie things together with certain Proffs, races etc.
I am an adlib GM. I have a concept of what I wish to do within a campaign and align encounters and story around that. I have been doing so for decades so it comes naturally for me.

That said, the first few games are just to help my players get a feel for who they are. Often I will wait til lvl 5 before starting many plotlines unless I have a specific plotline in mind. By Lvl 5 most of my players have a solid idea of who they are, what gimmicks they have etc.

Often events are introduced as a method to develop story. I understand that some players would take their own character and story and make it everything. I have encountered few players like this myself. Instead, you choose your proff, and your race and your skills and off you go down the story. Personal elements will come into play, but they are usually not the sole focus of game play.

Take the war of the Dark Queen for example. She declares war on the elves, because they have power that rivals her own. She subjugates or conquers all around her, and her war spreads across the land. That is my campaign concept. Now the characters might start off hearing rumours, then word of attacks incoming, then next thing you know the characters may become actively involved in the war effort, or sneaking around to avoid it.

In most ways I am completely flexible, am not tied down to one outcome and usually am able to create situations that act as either cues, or serve to direct players in a general direction. Where some games determine a set number of encounters, with a set number of events, I treat the events as a guideline, operating mostly on what works for both the players and the story.

This is why characters are free to be powerful, rich etc. and instead of nerfing them, they are encouraged to feel a sense of growth. When done properly, the story develops organically and is rewarding.

 

[pemerton]

To answer you question I would say as follows. I often have players write a small background about their character, learn a bit about what they envision. My world has a decently long history and therefor i can tie things together with certain Proffs, races etc.
I am an adlib GM. I have a concept of what I wish to do within a campaign and align encounters and story around that. I have been doing so for decades so it comes naturally for me.

That said, the first few games are just to help my players get a feel for who they are. Often I will wait til lvl 5 before starting many plotlines unless I have a specific plotline in mind. By Lvl 5 most of my players have a solid idea of who they are, what gimmicks they have etc.

Often events are introduced as a method to develop story. I understand that some players would take their own character and story and make it everything. I have encountered few players like this myself. Instead, you choose your proff, and your race and your skills and off you go down the story. Personal elements will come into play, but they are usually not the sole focus of game play.

Take the war of the Dark Queen for example. She declares war on the elves, because they have power that rivals her own. She subjugates or conquers all around her, and her war spreads across the land. That is my campaign concept. Now the characters might start off hearing rumours, then word of attacks incoming, then next thing you know the characters may become actively involved in the war effort, or sneaking around to avoid it.

In most ways I am completely flexible, am not tied down to one outcome and usually am able to create situations that act as either cues, or serve to direct players in a general direction. Where some games determine a set number of encounters, with a set number of events, I treat the events as a guideline, operating mostly on what works for both the players and the story.

This is why characters are free to be powerful, rich etc. and instead of nerfing them, they are encouraged to feel a sense of growth. When done properly, the story develops organically and is rewarding.

So is the answer to my question - how does the framing of scenes/establishing of situations work in your system? - the following (at least more-or-less)?

*The GM builds (or borrows or purchases) a fantasy setting.

*The GM thinks up one or more sequences of dramatic events/developments that are unfolding in this setting.

*The GM begins the game by presenting the players with relatively low-stakes situations that their PCs are in, which contain hints of or allusions to the events/developments mentioned in the previous dot point.

*The GM gradually introduces more overt elements into the immediate situation that are drawn from, or give expression to, the events/developments mentioned in the second dot point.​

That does leave me curious - while the game is at the beginning/early stage, what does the GM present as the primary content of scene/situations, if the dramatic events/developments are merely being hinted at or alluded to? You talk about "cues" and "direct[ing] players in a general direction" - but what is being cued? What direction are the players being directed in, if not to the dramatic events/developments? (Which you say does not happen until later, say level 5.)

 

[Bill Zebub]

So with a great deal of systems, I see a dedicated profession of thief. I would argue the need on the basis that, thieves do not have special powers, just skills. You could play a warrior, and rob people, take advantage of someone you caught off guard, a servant could walk away with important documents, or a locksmith could open locks. Debate me, and if you like thieves, what do you like about them?

Re-reading the OP, I think it would have been diplomatic to ask if the thief archetype is inherently different from, say, warriors, in the sense that it's all skills and no "special power," instead of stating it as fact. The latter can come across as challenging the Internet to a fight.

 

[Waller]

So with a great deal of systems, I see a dedicated profession of thief. I would argue the need on the basis that, thieves do not have special powers, just skills. You could play a warrior, and rob people, take advantage of someone you caught off guard, a servant could walk away with important documents, or a locksmith could open locks. Debate me, and if you like thieves, what do you like about them?

Are we permitted to disagree with you if we haven’t played your top secret game?

 

[1QD]

Are we permitted to disagree with you if we haven’t played your top secret game?

Of course! That is why I am here. I want to see the objections, and reactions and potentially even support for the changes to my own system that I feel might upset some of the player base. I can't think of any way outside of baseless trolling, where I wouldn't want feedback.

Henceforth if that is what you are doing, I will not be overly concerned with your opinion. If you are being constructive, I will welcome it. I would note that, just because someone disagrees, does not guarantee a change in a system that has been working beautifully for years.

 

[Waller]

I would note that, just because someone disagrees, does not guarantee a change in a system that has been working beautifully for years.

I have no interest in your system or whether you change it. I just wanted to make sure I was allowed to answer the question in the OP which ostensibly is not about your game.

So in that case, while we don’t need thieves or anything else in a game, games need whatever archetypes they are designed to support. A game doesn’t even need classes, and many don’t.

A game like Call of Cthulhu needs investigators. A sci-fi game needs pilots and scientists. A superhero game needs vigilantes and blasters and speedsters.

It all depends on how much support a game gives an archetype. But there is no archetype that every game needs to support. That is entirely a choice of the game designers, and it affects the way the game is approached by the players.

 

[1QD]

So is the answer to my question - how does the framing of scenes/establishing of situations work in your system? - the following (at least more-or-less)?

*The GM builds (or borrows or purchases) a fantasy setting.​

​

*The GM thinks up one or more sequences of dramatic events/developments that are unfolding in this setting.​

​

*The GM begins the game by presenting the players with relatively low-stakes situations that their PCs are in, which contain hints of or allusions to the events/developments mentioned in the previous dot point.​

​

*The GM gradually introduces more overt elements into the immediate situation that are drawn from, or give expression to, the events/developments mentioned in the second dot point.​

That does leave me curious - while the game is at the beginning/early stage, what does the GM present as the primary content of scene/situations, if the dramatic events/developments are merely being hinted at or alluded to? You talk about "cues" and "direct[ing] players in a general direction" - but what is being cued? What direction are the players being directed in, if not to the dramatic events/developments? (Which you say does not happen until later, say level 5.)

To answer your question I would perhaps suggest , the early levels are usually something minor. For that I use encounter rolls. The encounter, and most likely the next few will be something minor, like bandits on the road, or more commonly , adventurers will meet at the adventures guild for a ticket that just happens to require the parties skills and abilities. This is where player become familiar with their abilities, how combat works and also roleplaying. My core book even gives an example gaming session to demonstrate how a game might go, or at the very least is expected to go. It can also be used as a one off as well.

This example game takes about 5 pages and introduces the mechanics as though you were actually sitting down during a session, so you as a 1st timer, can see how inish works, how combat works and even how your status as a specific profession can influence your character. In fact the majority of the book is written as though I myself were explaining it to you.

Outside of this example I will have a laid back approach, letting characters explore the world. Ab libbing anything of relevance. I generally start with an idea of where I want my story to go, and somewhat due to experience I am able to introduce, hooks and leads. I use a combination of find rolls, encounters and story to direct the players. Stat checks too can direct the players.

Taking again the Dark Queen Saga, news of her armies approach would reach the players, then scouts, then recruiting for the allies, then a landing party, then an army....The story would build up around them until they were fully engaged and emersed in the story. I have recorded many of the gaming sessions in writing after the game, and as a result have many campaigns backed up. Short of showing you those I do not feel I can get much more specific.

I think it fair to note that my players have come to the table with an understanding. We are here to game, we are her to have fun, and there is a story being laid out for us. In my system players are somewhat part of the story telling. They can award small amounts of exp and even Karma for other players who do exceptionally well. The GM can veto of course, but this is rare. Players understand that GMing is a service and it takes creativity, work and adaptability. For this reason, players breaking away from the group for long times, for example, is generally frowned upon, unless their absence is due to player absence, character absence where no GMing is required or as we all know, work calls with a surprise shift.

For players who are disruptive there is -karma, which works surprisingly well because it should not be abused, and there is also just not playing with disruptive players in the first place. I might akin Karma as a slow ban hammer so favoured online, but far more reasonable. Players will understand what they are doing wrong and given chances to correct the behaviour. As I said, reasonable.

 

[1QD]

I have no interest in your system or whether you change it. I just wanted to make sure I was allowed to answer the question in the OP which ostensibly is not about your game.

ok

 

[Waller]

ok

Is that what you mean by “debate me”? I’m confused. This doesn’t feel like a debate.

 

[1QD]

Is that what you mean by “debate me”? I’m confused. This doesn’t feel like a debate.

It means that your wish not to be interested is yours to make. I am not even sure it needs to be stated really, as I may point out, that it is not part of the debate, but you do you.

I originally posted the question because I see wizards as having a clearly defined powers, clerics similarly, warriors excel in combat, but thief skills , imo, boil down to just skills like rope use for example. At best I can imagine them having put more time in those skills, but the thief doesn't really claim its own path as unique. Where as the training for a skilled wizard is highly advanced, or a knights guard.

The post was to inquire as to the opinions of others about thieves and either they felt them required or not. If you wish to debate, then i welcome a counter point. Since you have given your point of view, which amounts to games have what they support, I am not sure what more you are expecting. It's sort of a blanket statement answer really and doesn't really engage further debate. It also is based mostly on your opinion, which is what it is.