D&D General Rewarding player empathy: restoring an NPC’s wings in a starter adventure (Stormwreck Isle)

[Aenwyn]

I don't quite understand why the players are so mad at the brothers - did her brothers cause her injuries?

Because "leaving her for dead" isn't a crime - it's a tragic mistake.

That surprised me as well, to be honest. I think the strong reaction mostly comes from the fact that the players have grown very attached to Myla as a character. They empathize with her situation and instinctively want to protect her, which then turns into anger toward the brothers.
From a story perspective, I absolutely agree with you: the brothers didn’t cause her injuries, and leaving her behind was a tragic mistake made under extreme circumstances, not malice.
I plan to lean into that by having Myla clearly state that she is not angry with Mek and Minn, and that she understands why they believed she was dead. My hope is that this reframes the situation.

 

[Aenwyn]

Do you want the players to avoid killing all the kobolds because you simply don't want to participate in a game where the PCs engage in bloodthirsty revenge?

If this is the case, instead of looking for an in-game way to manipulate the players, I would advise that you just state this up front, so that everyone is on the same page about what they enjoy about the game and what people's limits are. If you want to also provide an in-game rationalistion, feel free, but setting and maintaining shared expectations is critical to ensure this type of thing doesn't just keep appearing. It also gets around potential problems if your players decided to ignore the in-game rationalisation, which could just make things worse if the PCs are angry about having their revenge thwarted and start to focus on other ways to mete out justice.

If the reason you want to avoid it is because it will derail the adventure in some way, I'd recommend that instead of trying to thwart it, identify what the consequences will be and be ready for them. This is actually important even if you do decide to give them in-game reasons not to go on a killing spree, because you'll be prepared if they ignore your efforts and things are derailed anyway.

I understand the point, and I don’t want to forbid my players from choosing violence or revenge.
I’ve just realized that I need to clarify some story details better, since Myla’s backstory is very brief and the players strongly connected with her emotionally.
My goal is less about stopping them and more about making sure their choices are informed and consistent with the situation, while being prepared for the consequences either way.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

So I was just reading this module the other day. The abbess or whatever of this monastery is Runara, an Adult Bronze Dragon who, while she uses that stat block, the module specifically says has vague powers not limited to that stat block. If the party can scrounge up a scroll of regeneration in one of their various delves it's perfectly reasonable to have Runara be able to cast it, and she can send them on a quest for such a thing, or some other suitable magic macguffin.

Alternatively the monastery is a shrine to Bahamut which already has healing properties, so some sort of ritual (again with some sort of thing they quest for) should be able to get the Platinum Dragon to repair Myla's wings.

But it should definitely not be possible to fix Myla's wings with Cure Wounds or some other low level magic. That's going to make Runara look real suspicious if one of the people under her care had that solvable a problem and she didn't get it solved, not to mention making the players wonder too much about the nature of her powers too early.

 

[SableWyvern]

I understand the point, and I don’t want to forbid my players from choosing violence or revenge.
I’ve just realized that I need to clarify some story details better, since Myla’s backstory is very brief and the players strongly connected with her emotionally.
My goal is less about stopping them and more about making sure their choices are informed and consistent with the situation, while being prepared for the consequences either way.

Yeah, my responses assumed perfect communication. Since then, I've picked up on the fact that perhaps the real issues is a break-down in communication (the player's understanding of the situation doesn't necessarily match how you'd expect the PCs to understand it).

I can see you're already hit on the way I would recommend resolving that particular problem, which is resume communication and ensure a clear, shared understanding of the situation.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

But it should definitely not be possible to fix Myla's wings with Cure Wounds or some other low level magic.

I have to very strongly disagree with you that some sort of verisimilitude logic should ever get in the way of letting the players do a cool thing to help out an NPC they've taken a liking to. Fun >> fantasy game "realism", every time

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I have to very strongly disagree with you that some sort of verisimilitude logic should ever get in the way of letting the players do a cool thing to help out an NPC they've taken a liking to. Fun >> fantasy game "realism", every time

Very well. We strongly disagree.

Overcoming limitations through hard work, clever roleplay, etc. in a world where everything you want is not handed to you and the conditions you face make sense is more fun than playing Mary Sue in a world full of contrived problems that should have been solved by anyone with half a brain long ago. This is generic setting D&D, where low level magic is everywhere all the time. Most players aren't looking to babysit helpless idiot NPCs, which is what it starts feeling like in a world where people's core problems can be solved by a not particularly creative use of a level 1 spell.

Excessive focus on immediate gratification fun will kill long-term fun in a ttrpg. Every time.

And to be clear I totally think it's pretty easy to go overboard on simulationist "realism" in ways that get in the way of fun for dubious benefits. I just think for most D&D groups taking "fun > realism" to the extent of making every obstacle trivial and logic of obstacles paper thin is going to severely undermine the fun in the long term. That doesn't mean everything has to be a huge quest, just that they need to show more outside-the-box thinking than Cure Wounds for a medical problem, or a greater sacrifice than a level 1 spell slot at the home base for the adventure, to make the solution feel earned and the problem feel real.

 

[SableWyvern]

Very well. We strongly disagree.

Overcoming limitations through hard work, clever roleplay, etc. in a world where everything you want is not handed to you and the conditions you face make sense is more fun than playing Mary Sue in a world full of contrived problems that should have been solved by anyone with half a brain long ago. This is generic setting D&D, where low level magic is everywhere all the time. Most players aren't looking to babysit helpless idiot NPCs, which is what it starts feeling like in a world where people's core problems can be solved by a not particularly creative use of a level 1 spell.

Excessive focus on immediate gratification fun will kill long-term fun in a ttrpg. Every time.

I think that, in the moment, my players would probably feel: Fun > fantasy "realism".

Over the course of a campaign though, they understand that: Fantasy "realism" = Long Term Fun. Part of that is feeling that if something good happens, it's because it was earned, not simply because it decided it would be fun.

That said, Fun > fantasy realism (always) is also a perfectly legitimate playstyle, even if not one I'm particularly interested in. I'm hesitant to agree that it's going to ruin every long term game, every time.

 

[aco175]

There is the side quest in the book about Hot Springs Havoc that has healing waters. The book just says you can take a soak and gain HP like you spend one hit die. Just expand the idea and have something else. The book gives you magic mushrooms that lets you not need to breath for an hour, but it can be changed.

I made an expanded location on DMsGuild that uses the springs and added a secret room where the dragon's bones are that gives the spring its powers. Change out the key as treasure to something. Maybe a healing potion is soaking in the waters and gaining additional healing properties or such. The adventure is free, maybe it helps.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

I just think for most D&D groups taking "fun > realism" to the extent of making every obstacle trivial and logic of obstacles paper thin is going to severely undermine the fun in the long term.

I do totally agree with this. Just like some people go overboard with verisimilitude at the expense of gameplay, on the opposite end of the spectrum you also don't want to go overboard with always saying yes to everything and removing any challenge from the game. I think we're just disagreeing on where to draw the line

 

[AlViking]

I do totally agree with this. Just like some people go overboard with verisimilitude at the expense of gameplay, on the opposite end of the spectrum you also don't want to go overboard with always saying yes to everything and removing any challenge from the game. I think we're just disagreeing on where to draw the line

In a case like restoring the kobold's wings, since the cleric is actually a dragon, I wouldn't have an issue with the cleric having a special version of regeneration. Call it dragon magic or dragon restoration salve- magic specific to dragons and related creatures. I have no issue with magic occasionally being available to NPCs that is not available to PCs.

But it is a balancing act and in part depends on the type of campaign world you envision. My campaigns are pretty magic rich with magic being used for many more mundane thing that just combat and adventuring oriented abilities like characters are trained in. On the other hand I don't want to automatically hand the characters an "I win" button every time they want to achieve something, the challenge is part of the fun.