D&D General Alternate firearms rules (input needed)

[Tormyr]

I have been working on updating Pathfinder 1e guns into 5e in support of my Zeitgeist campaign. Back when I was considering whether or not to include the concept of the ranged attack vs Touch AC, I thought about using Dex saving throws. So if eliminating the effect of physical AC is what you are going for, the Dex saving throw is the simplest way to do it.

Potential downsides of using Dex saving throws:

• You automatically hit and do damage to objects, even if they are made of exotic materials like adamantine, moving, or very small.
• Any creature with Evasion is automatically better against firearms, on top of a probable high Dex saving throw. This could create a wide gap between those weak against firearms and those strong against firearms.
• No penalty for firing when an Enemy is within 5 feet of you.
• With firearms not being an attack or a spell, you have to write rules for everything rather than leverage 5e's rules.

Each of these potential issues can be mitigated with adding more rules. Keep in mind though that usually 5e resolves attempts to deal damage to a single target with an attack roll unless dealing with a cloud or some other mitigating circumstance (see poison spray or sacred flame). Also, those cantrips that target a single thing with a saving throw generally only let you target creatures.

(I settled on something closer to the mechanics for firearms in the 5e PHB and DMG. I then added more of the equipment options from PF (extra firearm types, alchemical cartridges, etc.). Misfire, ranged vs Touch AC, extra damage on critical hits, and other things that would require extra rules because they were not already supported in 5e went out the window.)

Most balance issues will go away if you make it behave like a cantrip and don't worry too much about realism. 5e is more about telling stories and less about verisimilitude.

• 1dX damage die with cantrip scaling. No ability modifier damage without feats.
• Uses an action.
• Dex save for no damage.
• Can fire on a target up to the long range of the firearm. Targets that are outside of normal range have advantage on the saving throw.
• One weapon mastery that takes effect if the target fails its saving throw. (Although I prefer "if the target takes" damage for the trigger.)
• Firearms are martial weapons.
• If the creature can make ranged weapon attack rolls with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma (such as a Hexblade), use that ability modifier for the saving throw DC.
• Use PHB for examples of firearm damage dice, ranges, and weapon masteries.
• Magic firearms add +X to DC and damage.

Potential feats:

Gunsmith
Origin feat

Extra Damage. Once on your turn when you shoot a firearm, you can add your ability modifier to the damage if you aren't already adding it to the damage. (each of the feats adds ability modifier damage; a PC only needs to choose one)

Proficiency. You have proficiency with firearms and Tinker's Tools. (gets around firearms being martial weapons)

Tinker's Tools. You gain a set of Tinker's Tools. (gives the tools to craft firearms)

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Gunslinger
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+)

You gain the following benefits.

Ability Score Increase. Increase your Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20. (any ability a PC might need to make a ranged weapon attack)

Dual Wielding. When you are holding two one-handed firearms, you can use your action to shoot both firearms instead of just one. You can add your ability modifier to the damage of each firearm if you aren’t already adding it to the damage. You only roll the normal damage dice (no scaling) when you shoot the second firearm.

Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two one-handed firearms as part of shooting them when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

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Sniper
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+)

You gain the following benefits.

Ability Score Increase. Increase your Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Bypass Cover. When you shoot at a creature with your firearm, a creature does not gain a bonus to its Dexterity saving throw from Half Cover and Three-Quarters Cover.

Extra Damage. Once on your turn when you shoot a firearm, you can add your ability modifier to the damage if you aren't already adding it to the damage.

Long Shots. When you shoot at a creature with your firearm, being at long range does not grant a creature Advantage.

 

[TiQuinn]

I really like the direction you’re going with this. I think the Dex save rather than having to beat AC makes sense. The scaling damage makes sense from a balance perspective and narratively I’d probably consider that a result of the character being more accurate and deadly with their shots. The reload time feels off though. For me, at some point it is still a weapon and not a spell and I’m struggling with the narrative reason that someone can’t reload a pistol without taking a short/long rest. Perhaps reloading takes an action instead?

 

[Tormyr]

I realized that was more my suggestion on a slightly modified version of what you proposed. To actually address your questions and possible issues I see. Personal opinions are starred (*). In no particular order:

1. Making this not an attack roll but also not a spell means that you have to build everything around it versus leaning on the existing rules. By making firearms their own thing, there is not a way to anticipate how it will interact (or not) with other classes and features that get added down the road.
2. Doesn't fit with sneak attack, extra attack, cantrip + weapon attack, and other class features. (and that's okay, just something to keep in mind)
3. You automatically hit and do damage to objects, even if they are made of exotic materials like adamantine, moving, or very small.
4. Any creature with Evasion is automatically better against firearms, on top of a probable high Dex saving throw. This could create a wide gap between those weak against firearms and those strong against firearms.
5. No penalty for firing when an Enemy is within 5 feet of you.
6. *I understand you want slow rate of fire, but Pathfinder-style reloading is too fiddly for 5e. It is going to be a struggle for balance. In PF, firearms are either too powerful (Gunslinger with all their buffs) or too slow (everyone else). When in doubt, simplify.
7. Like with other weapons, drawing and stowing should already be part of shooting a firearm.
8. *I feel the damage is too high, but I also don't think reloading really has a place in 5e. I would suggest balancing the DPR against similar options and move on.
9. Use the PHB for the damage dice, ranges, and weapon masteries.
10. Have long range still mean something.
11. Certain PC classes can make ranged weapon attack rolls with an ability other than Dexterity. What about them?
12. *Dex save for no damage. Automatic damage is too powerful.
13. Ability modifier gets added to damage through feats.
14. Ignore crits in your considerations. You chose to do saving throws.
15. Firearms are special weapons (not spells); but cantrip damage scaling is a good way to keep damage balanced between them and cantrips.
16. *5e is more about story than mechanics. The slow rate of fire foregoes someone from creating a character revolving around the firearm. Hence my suggestion to make the firearms more balanced against other methods of attack.

 

[Laurefindel]

Thanks everyone for all your replies, these are very helpful.

Indeed the feel I’m going for is early matchlock technology (technological advancements just graduated from hand-cannons fired with a match). Bullets are inaccurate and the outcome is uncertain, not by fault of the attacker. We’re not at Napoleonian or American Independence War level of technology yet, so the concept of a gunslinger feels out of context here. Typical users can expect to gain 1 attack per combat per loaded firearm; they are meant as flashy, one-off big boom side-weapons for PCs rather than main usage weapons, unless they specialize in them. Still uncertain about how effective a dedicated pistolier or arquebusier should be.

I’m now aiming to make reloading 1 minute or 1 round with the feat (which then can be fired as a BA). As such, I want firearms to have more punch than cantrips. As soon as reloading is more than 1 round anyway, you might as well say « not in combat », but 1 hour seems indeed unnecessary long.

Firearms will only have one range, with no damage on successful save for pistol, and 1/2 damage on save for musket (which I will likely rename arquebus). That will be the ability of the arquebus. Not sure about adding a rider to the pistol damage anymore. I like the idea of allowing still greater range with advantage on saving throws.

I’m having a hard time rationalizing upgraded damage à la cantrip other than having firearms stay relevant at higher level (which I can live with). I might have them deal an extra damage die per extra attack feature instead (which comes up to be the same for fighters), but I need to see how that will impact rogues, paladins, and rangers (and monks for a Chinese’s fire lances feel). I need to see how all of this fits with rogue sneak attack, and paladin and ranger features that boost damage anyway. The spell angle had that advantage of explicitly bypassing all weapon features.

[edit] 5e24 is a bit more precise it it’s wording and uses « when you hit with an attack roll » pretty consistently, rather than « when you make a weapon attack » of 5e14. Only the ranger has a few abilities left wording « attacks with a weapon », which makes me wonder if these are deliberate or involuntary omissions. At any case, I can easily rationalize why an imprecise weapon is not compatible with sneak attack and such, but it does open up the possibility of homebrewed subclasses that bend the rules in favor of firearms-wielding rogues and rangers.

 

[Tormyr]

Thanks everyone for all your replies, these are very helpful.

Indeed the feel I’m going for is early matchlock technology (technological advancements just graduated from hand-cannons fired with a match). Bullets are inaccurate and the outcome is uncertain, not by fault of the attacker. We’re not at Napoleonian or American Independence War level of technology yet, so the concept of a gunslinger feels out of context here. Typical users can expect to gain 1 attack per combat per loaded firearm; they are meant as flashy, one-off big boom side-weapons for PCs rather than main usage weapons, unless they specialize in them. Still uncertain about how effective a dedicated pistolier or arquebusier should be.

I’m now aiming to make reloading 1 minute or 1 round with the feat (which then can be fired as a BA). As such, I want firearms to have more punch than cantrips. As soon as reloading is more than 1 round anyway, you might as well say « not in combat », but 1 hour seems indeed unnecessary long.

So anyone can do one big shot once per encounter, but someone trained with the feat can fire every other turn. I would suggest having the feat both add a damage die and make reloading an action. That would allow a level 1-4 character to keep up with a firearm as a primary weapon. Then you just have to figure out damage scaling to fit in DPR at higher levels.

Firearms will only have one range, with no damage on successful save for pistol, and 1/2 damage on save for musket (which I will likely rename arquebus). That will be the ability of the arquebus. Not sure about adding a rider to the pistol damage anymore. I like the idea of allowing still greater range with advantage on saving throws.

In my opinion, removing the long range penalty is running counter to your design goal of simulating an inaccurate weapon. With a long range built into the weapon, one of the ways of simulating the earlier technology is by making the early pistol range (20/60 ft.) instead of (30/90 ft).

I’m having a hard time rationalizing upgraded damage à la cantrip other than having firearms stay relevant at higher level (which I can live with). I might have them deal an extra damage die per extra attack feature instead (which comes up to be the same for fighters), but I need to see how that will impact rogues, paladins, and rangers (and monks for a Chinese’s fire lances feel). I need to see how all of this fits with rogue sneak attack, and paladin and ranger features that boost damage anyway. The spell angle had that advantage of explicitly bypassing all weapon features.

Another way to make firearms more punchy would be to add Proficiency Bonus to the damage. It still doesn't fix the scaling though. I feel like that requires going one of two directions:

• Go back to making a firearm an attack roll with a firearm-unique boost to damage.
• Use the entirety of the action (not able to be shared like a cantrip) and use a damage progression such as cantrip-style progression or roll PBdX damage dice.

[edit] 5e24 is a bit more precise it it’s wording and uses « when you hit with an attack roll » pretty consistently, rather than « when you make a weapon attack » of 5e14. Only the ranger has a few abilities left wording « attacks with a weapon », which makes me wonder if these are deliberate or involuntary omissions. At any case, I can easily rationalize why an imprecise weapon is not compatible with sneak attack and such, but it does open up the possibility of homebrewed subclasses that bend the rules in favor of firearms-wielding rogues and rangers.

Looking at different character builds:

• Why would a player choose this version of firearms over other alternatives for their PC?
• Can a player do the same thing better with existing rules?
• Is this version of a firearm so powerful that it is too their disadvantage not to choose it?

The basic firearm as proposed feels like a bit of power creep by giving everyone an extra punch at the start of an encounter. That is not necessarily bad if the bad guys can do it to, but this will be especially dangerous for low-level PCs. They can't make a Dex saving throw if they are unconscious (being prone doesn't help in this case), and a single high roll at 0 hit points could insta-kill a PC (which is easier to do if firearms just let a creature roll more damage than other weapons).



I feel like the lack of attack rolls is holding this version of firearms back because of its lack of integration with class features (and possible difficulty of staying relevant at higher levels).

 

[Laurefindel]

So anyone can do one big shot once per encounter, but someone trained with the feat can fire every other turn. I would suggest having the feat both add a damage die and make reloading an action. That would allow a level 1-4 character to keep up with a firearm as a primary weapon. Then you just have to figure out damage scaling to fit in DPR at higher levels.



In my opinion, removing the long range penalty is running counter to your design goal of simulating an inaccurate weapon. With a long range built into the weapon, one of the ways of simulating the earlier technology is by making the early pistol range (20/60 ft.) instead of (30/90 ft).



Another way to make firearms more punchy would be to add Proficiency Bonus to the damage. It still doesn't fix the scaling though. I feel like that requires going one of two directions:

• Go back to making a firearm an attack roll with a firearm-unique boost to damage.
• Use the entirety of the action (not able to be shared like a cantrip) and use a damage progression such as cantrip-style progression or roll PBdX damage dice.

Looking at different character builds:

• Why would a player choose this version of firearms over other alternatives for their PC?
• Can a player do the same thing better with existing rules?
• Is this version of a firearm so powerful that it is too their disadvantage not to choose it?

The basic firearm as proposed feels like a bit of power creep by giving everyone an extra punch at the start of an encounter. That is not necessarily bad if the bad guys can do it to, but this will be especially dangerous for low-level PCs. They can't make a Dex saving throw if they are unconscious (being prone doesn't help in this case), and a single high roll at 0 hit points could insta-kill a PC (which is easier to do if firearms just let a creature roll more damage than other weapons).



I feel like the lack of attack rolls is holding this version of firearms back because of its lack of integration with class features (and possible difficulty of staying relevant at higher levels).

The intention is that someone with the feat can fire every round; load as an Action, fire as a Bonus Action. I need to make this a clause of rapid reload. Good catch.

If this variant is introduced in this world, the default PHB options would not exist (which is already the case in the current iteration of that setting).

But otherwise, yes, the lack of attack rolls changes the whole paradigm, which is intentional.

 

[Tormyr]

In that case, the sweet spot for the feat might give someone with the feat 1 more damage die over someone without the feat per round.

You might want to make the reload the bonus action, otherwise someone can use the firearm plus use their action for something else, like casting a fireball.

 

[Laurefindel]

In that case, the sweet spot for the feat might give someone with the feat 1 more damage die over someone without the feat per round.

You might want to make the reload the bonus action, otherwise someone can use the firearm plus use their action for something else, like casting a fireball.

They’d need an ability to make a weapon attack as a Bonus Action, like bladesinger or valor bard. Looks like I need to clarify a few things in the weapons’ description and feat.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

My fundamental issue with using Dexterity saves for firearms is that they completely discount armor and make it so that character who wear heavier armor are less like to succeed in avoiding them.

Unless you are firing plasma or lasers, or are using modern bullets (which can NOT be manufactured in medieval settings and which case you also should be adding materials like Kevlar, ceramic plating, modern body armor), guns do NOT just peel through armor. They literally tested full platemail and breastplates by firing a flintlock pistol at it at point blank range, and armor was large phased out due to its expensive nature and the ease of use with firearms compared to training infantry to use bows, crossbows, or traditional arms.

The other issue is that even what I just typed is a gross oversimplification compress a literal thousand year arms race. Full plate and flint lock weapons did not just magically pop up overnight, and by the time of the end of the samurai (literally the same time as the end of the American Civil War) guns used there were vastly different than the ones used even 100 years before that, much less the ancient Chinese rockets.

Now, historical preamble aside, I'd suggest giving those wearing armor a boost to their Dexterity saves equal to the amount their armor provides (or at least half if that is too much a bonus).

I'd also suggest you take a look at the modern firearms in the Dungeonmaster's guide. They already use a Dexterity saves (albeit flat DC 15) with the Burst Fire option, though again, these are considered modern weapons with modern ammunition.

Frankly I'm also annoyed with the DMG for not adding a side blurb in this section talking about reflavoring armor as modern armor or protective clothing for modern games, because WotC should know dang well that a large portion of their player base is pedantic enough that if such a blurb isn't written in the book they'll never consider/allow it, but that's kind of tangential to the topic of this thread.

 

[Tormyr]

My fundamental issue with using Dexterity saves for firearms is that they completely discount armor and make it so that character who wear heavier armor are less like to succeed in avoiding them.

Unless you are firing plasma or lasers, or are using modern bullets (which can NOT be manufactured in medieval settings and which case you also should be adding materials like Kevlar, ceramic plating, modern body armor), guns do NOT just peel through armor. They literally tested full platemail and breastplates by firing a flintlock pistol at it at point blank range, and armor was large phased out due to its expensive nature and the ease of use with firearms compared to training infantry to use bows, crossbows, or traditional arms.

The other issue is that even what I just typed is a gross oversimplification compress a literal thousand year arms race. Full plate and flint lock weapons did not just magically pop up overnight, and by the time of the end of the samurai (literally the same time as the end of the American Civil War) guns used there were vastly different than the ones used even 100 years before that, much less the ancient Chinese rockets.

Now, historical preamble aside, I'd suggest giving those wearing armor a boost to their Dexterity saves equal to the amount their armor provides (or at least half if that is too much a bonus).

I'd also suggest you take a look at the modern firearms in the Dungeonmaster's guide. They already use a Dexterity saves (albeit flat DC 15) with the Burst Fire option, though again, these are considered modern weapons with modern ammunition.

Frankly I'm also annoyed with the DMG for not adding a side blurb in this section talking about reflavoring armor as modern armor or protective clothing for modern games, because WotC should know dang well that a large portion of their player base is pedantic enough that if such a blurb isn't written in the book they'll never consider/allow it, but that's kind of tangential to the topic of this thread.

At the risk of: Hey, here's something I found on Google.
It is fairly easy to find multiple examples of people indicating that very early firearms defeating plate, at least at the short ranges used for Pathfinder and D&D firearms. Pathfinder handled firearms by making a ranged attack against Touch AC, which ignored the AC bonus from the armor. A Dexterity saving throw is the nearest thing in 5e to Touch AC.

Discounting fantasy armor vs firearms has precedents in both history and prior game versions. If anything, the current method that 5e uses for firearms is further from reality, but it works better within the design of 5e.

The DMG only gives a saving throw for burst fire because it is over an area. I also am underwhelmed with firearms in the DMG. Although my personal beef is that they missed out on giving the shotgun the graze weapon mastery.