AD&D 1E AD&D Retroclone Design Goals

[DammitVictor]

Knights & Knaves and the AD&D community are not places I'm welcome, but I am happy to hear OSRIC is getting a new edition. Personally and I know the AD&D gang wants to hear nothing I have to say I think it could benefit from two different approaches that might be hard to reconcile.

I didn't think that a thread about a project In Progress would be an appropriate place for my reply-- but I wanted to respond to this from the perspective of an AD&D and retroclone fan. And an AD&D fan from whom the "AD&D gang" doesn't particularly want to hear much, either.

1st - Simply streamlining and cleaning up the 1980's language and layout issues of AD&D and moving the disparate parts together from the various books ... even when they don't make sense. Example: bring the various lb and coin weight approaches to encumbrance together - the specific encumbrance by item and the generalized system right next to each other. Let the reader figure out how to use it best for their table, but present it all side by side. Let's call this the "OSE" format

2nd - Really build on the work of AD&D auteurs like Anthony Huso/Blue Bard and make a "best practices AD&D" from Gygax's creative slurry. Call this the "Errant" version.

I have... a lot of things I want to see in an "AD&D clone" that make it... less of an AD&D clone... and keep me from seriously working on it. I think the "OSE" organizational approach is important. But in terms of a pure AD&D clone, I think one thing I would like to see is Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures incorporated and integrated into the core rules and... some limited inclusions from 2e, mostly from PHBR05 (psionics) and 10 (humanoids).

Bonus Option ... guaranteed to provoke spitting and hissing among AD&D obsessives. Fix the system however, but spend the time lavishing love and creativity on what really makes AD&D special ... all the implied setting. The items, the random encounters, the spells and monsters. Just twist everything a bit. Put it into a slightly new setting. Not much, but maybe a bit more Dunsany or a stronger doom and darkness vibe. Heck go with the apparent AD&D end game (it's not domains) and make it a world of cosmic struggle where adventure consists of fighting against otherworldly incursion, and ultimately incurring into those other planes in revenge.

Good fit for everything I'm suggesting above, actually.

 

[Greyknife Ike]

I have... a lot of things I want to see in an "AD&D clone" that make it... less of an AD&D clone... and keep me from seriously working on it. I think the "OSE" organizational approach is important. But in terms of a pure AD&D clone, I think one thing I would like to see is Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures incorporated and integrated into the core rules and... some limited inclusions from 2e

This sounds like you want to do what current OSE (if you buy basic &advance or the upcoming revised release) is to the b/x & 1e, in that you'd end up with more of a thing that's a 1.x more than a straight 1e clone. Which hey I'd go for if you think there's a niche for it . The specific flavor you're going for of your take on 1e+UA+OA+ bits of 2e can make something uniquely different as it sounds like the setting that'd result naturally would be a very dukes vs shoguns type landscape that'd be unique for a default setting even if you don't really expand on it outside of making it all one uniform and I'd be interested in at least looking at it.

 

[jonesymat]

I have... a lot of things I want to see in an "AD&D clone" that make it... less of an AD&D clone... and keep me from seriously working on it.

Well there is space for the two approaches. This already exists in some way. Hyperborea is an example of the second approach (but not that radical like your example). But I don't know if there is let's say a market for all the possible AD&D-like configurations. I don't know if a combination of all the rules of AD&D 1e supplements and 2e supplements would be feasible to be an elegant and concise work like OSE

 

[DammitVictor]

I've wanted to do it myself, but I never landed it. (I've tried.) I'm doing something similar now, but it's too far removed from D&D to really appeal to the retroclone fandom.

 

[Belen]

I wish they’d do a 2e update with a full VTT.

 

[DammitVictor]

I don't know if a combination of all the rules of AD&D 1e supplements and 2e supplements would be feasible to be an elegant and concise work like OSE

Certainly not the 2e supplements. I'm speaking in the context of an AD&D 1e clone, like OSRIC, where the supplemental classes come from all of two books, unless you wanted to nick some Best of Dragon material. The only 2e supplemental material I'd want to include in a 1e clone would be a quick rundown of humanoids as (optional) playables and the psionicist class.

Basically, if I'd been talking about 2e... I'd probably stick to the PHB classes and only add at most the monk and assassin and the psionicist and include a handful of Kits in the core rules to differentiate between the Cavalier, the Kensei, and the Barbarian. Given my druthers, I'd do a partial Player's Option clone and assign the "ki" class features to the standard classes.

 

[jonesymat]

Certainly not the 2e supplements. I'm speaking in the context of an AD&D 1e clone, like OSRIC, where the supplemental classes come from all of two books, unless you wanted to nick some Best of Dragon material. The only 2e supplemental material I'd want to include in a 1e clone would be a quick rundown of humanoids as (optional) playables and the psionicist class.

Basically, if I'd been talking about 2e... I'd probably stick to the PHB classes and only add at most the monk and assassin and the psionicist and include a handful of Kits in the core rules to differentiate between the Cavalier, the Kensei, and the Barbarian. Given my druthers, I'd do a partial Player's Option clone and assign the "ki" class features to the standard classes.

I think to avoid a clone with a lot of bloat in the core book, maybe an supplement for OSRIC with these classes can be a good idea, like the Unearthed Arcana for OSRIC

 

[Jahydin]

Love AD&D and the OSR systems from fans wanting to take their stab at improving it.

In what ways do you plan on deviating from the original?

 

[DammitVictor]

Love AD&D and the OSR systems from fans wanting to take their stab at improving it.

In what ways do you plan on deviating from the original?

Oh, I am not planning to. Just thinking out loud about what I'd like to see-- my WIP owes more to Code SNE and ICE than TSR and I'm only vaguely hoping it'll be of interest to the broader OSR community.

There's a lot of overlap between what I'm trying to do with my house system and what I'd do in a retroclone, though.

Starting with 2e Player's Option as the base:

• Simplified ability scores; B/X math, no subabilities, limited scaling. (Think ICE, not WotC.)
• Merged and reconciled class list; all the core and "near core" classes would be  there but not necessarily separate.
• Classes and ancestries are customizable, but in a more restricted fashion. Class abilities are organized by class group, not by class.
  • Ancestry abilities scale with level and level-up CP can be used to buy them after 1st.
• Spellcasting would milk Chapter 6 of Spells & Magic, using those mechanics to have very different magic styles beyond spell lists.
• Definitely have a look at combining 2e's optional XP rewards (by class) with HARP's quest rewards.
• WP and NWP rules are in use, but not for basic proficiencies; they're for more special and specialized skills.
  • This includes OA martial arts and DF martial arts.
• Psionics is core.

Spoiler: Excessive and Largely Pointless Details

I haven't actually worked on this all that much as a project for publication; most of this material represents homebrew work I did for my table between 1995 and 2000. I've revisited it a few times since getting back into old D&D in 2010 or so.

When I was running AD&D in high school, I used Skills & Powers and Spells & Magic to customize the race/class rules for every campaign.

Ancestry & Class

• Core ancestries are PHB/S&P standard, plus goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear.
  • Hybrid ancestry is a human ancestral feature that can be selected/purchased.
• Classes are organized into groups like in 2e, including the Psionic group.
  • Warrior: Cavalier (+Samurai), Soldier (Bushi), Swordsage, Swashbuckler (think PHBR 1&2), Ranger.
  • Rogue: Thief, Bard, Assassin, Sapper
  • Mage: Wizard (diviner + sage), Sorcerer (Elementalist/Wu Jen), Magician (illusion/mentalism/dimension), Witch, Warlock.
  • Priest: Cleric, Templar (Crusader + Sohei), Shaman (+Shukenja), Druid, Healer.
  • Psion: Mystic (Monk + egoist), Psychic (telepath + seer), Havoker (soulknife + PK).
  • "Paladin" is something Warriors & Priests can  become; Assassins and Rangers are optional minor spellcasters.
• Race/class restrictions are  loosened but not removed entirely.
  • Humans can multiclass  better than other ancestries.
  • Some ancestries have requirements in addition to restrictions, like elves being warrior/mages before they can be /rogues or /priests.
• Subraces are less of a thing and ancestral features are less standardized. I like to think my minor flavor changes are pretty cool.

Martial Arts

I have never made this work, but the goal here is for the OA/PHBR15 martial arts system to coexist with "unarmed" weapon mastery and (even) more fantastic abilities from Dragon Fist and Flying Swordsmen. Players would buy these abilities with CP, based on their class and level.

Spellcasting

Just... read Chapter Six of Player's Option: Spells & Magic and think about some of the alternatives to Vancian casting that have been developed since 3e. It's trivial to adapt those rules for Wizard or Sorcerer casting, 5e prepared casting, or even further extremes like Sha'ir- or Warmage-style casting.

Psionics uses the "spellcasting" rules for spell lists and spells per day, but different mechanics than mage and priest spells. All psions are strictly limited to their known spells.

Every spellcaster (class and individual) has Major access to some schools/spheres and Minor access to others. (Which determines spell point cost, not maximum spell level.) Each class has its own rules for known/prepared spells and fixed/free magick. Different classes might use some of the special spellcasting rules.

Mages and Psions have tighter restrictions on their spells but can poach from other classes in their groups. Priests are a lot freer with their class spells, but a lot more restricted outside of their class lists. Minor spellcasters get the worst of both worlds.

 

[mixmastashizz]

What is ICE and SNE in this context?