Crows, James Introcasos MCDM Dungeon Crawler RPG

[mamba]

Good memory about that, too. I forgot about the parallel message paths split between Patreon posts vs. Backerkit posts. With backers upset patrons kept getting so much “in development behind the curtains” chat.

it’s not that patreons got so much info, it’s that backers got so little. If there were no patreon, it still would have been too little communication to the backers

 

[Reynard]

it’s not that patreons got so much info, it’s that backers got so little. If there were no patreon, it still would have been too little communication to the backers

Why? You pre-ordered a thing you were told would not be out for a year or more. Why would you expect communication before "it's shipped!" Even more so in a circumstance where you were told that if you were interested in watching the development of the game, you should join the Patreon.

 

[mamba]

Why? You pre-ordered a thing you were told would not be out for a year or more. Why would you expect communication before "it's shipped!"

have you ever backed a Kickstarter? There usually is pretty frequent communication, progress updates, playtest material, etc. DS! had that too, but less than the average KS, esp. towards the end there was a long stretch of no updated material

I was told there would be more on the patreon, and I was fine with that part. I felt there was too little information directed at the backers.

 

[Reynard]

have you ever backed a Kickstarter? There usually is pretty frequent communication, progress updates, playtest material, etc. DS! had that too, but less than the average KS, esp. towards the end there was a long stretch of no updated material

I was told there would be more on the patreon, and I was fine with that part. I felt there was too little information directed at the backers.

I have backed a few and it seems to me, communication is highly variable. I did not back Draw Steel in part because I knew it was going to have a long development time and was certainly going to be available to buy as a normal product (which I have since done).

So, sure, it is cool when creators keep you up to date (Western Reached for Shadowdark) but it isn't necessary and I don't think backers should feel entitled to it.

 

[mamba]

So, sure, it is cool when creators keep you up to date (Western Reached for Shadowdark) but it isn't necessary and I don't think backers should feel entitled to it.

necessary and entitled are strong words. I would have preferred more communication and was disappointed that it did not happen, and I am clearly not alone in this.

What I definitely am entitled to is my own opinion and to post that.

 

[Reynard]

What I definitely am entitled to is my own opinion and to post that.

Was this in question?

 

[mamba]

Was this in question?

you tell me, I am just stating it

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It'll be interesting to see how it differs from other choices out there. Looking forward to the theory videos as design work goes forward.

Yeah this is what intrigues me, because I'm not sure there's really much unoccupied design space for this, given it's starting from the basis that Draw Steel! isn't a dungeon crawler, which implies a very narrow and specific definition of dungeon crawler, one which is extremely well-served presently (whereas Heroic Tactical Fantasy was not, and thanks to peculiarities of Draw Steel! kind of still isn't lol).

 

[mamba]

Yeah this is what intrigues me, because I'm not sure there's really much unoccupied design space for this, given it's starting from the basis that Draw Steel! isn't a dungeon crawler, which implies a very narrow and specific definition of dungeon crawler, one which is extremely well-served presently (whereas Heroic Tactical Fantasy was not, and thanks to peculiarities of Draw Steel! kind of still isn't lol).

where do you see DS! not serving the heroic tactical fantasy niche?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I have backed a few and it seems to me, communication is highly variable.

I've only ever seen Kickstarter-type communication as poor and limited as we got with Draw Steel! with two kinds of product:

1) Products having serious production issues, which Draw Steel! was not.

2) Products with a single creator or extremely small team, which are small-money, and are not something that's being worked on full-time.

That's not to say products won't go dark for several months or whatever, but usually they are very clear that they're going to do it, and why, and they're not also telling OTHER people tons and tons and tons about the product, just through a paid channel.

This is not typical or usual or representative. The decision to basically channel 90% of what would normally be posted on a KS into his Patreon instead (which is not cheap, note, and the free tier got you zero communication) was a weird one and not one I've seen before nor one I expected. I think maybe if I was very familiar with MCDM I maybe should have expected it, but I didn't.

The end result is that I would definitely never back a KS from MCDM again unless one of the points of the KS was "We won't do all our communication about this product with Matt Colville's personal Patreons, we'll treat KS backers as equal partners", because like, why would you? This isn't a company that strictly needs to do KSes at all, I don't think it was cheaper (or not much cheaper) than just buying it at release, and if I just wanted to give money to a man with astonishingly almost divinely terrible music and film tastes, who has some decent ideas about game design and DMing, I'd already be on the Patreon!

Even more so in a circumstance where you were told that if you were interested in watching the development of the game, you should join the Patreon.

That wasn't what they said though - instead they blathered and tried to cut a middle path where they implied they'd give plenty of updates to KS Backers, and just that they'd give "more" to the Patreon backers. In the end they gave almost no updates the to the KS backers (there were what, like three real ones ever, two of them fairly close together), and here's the real issue for me - it very much felt like they did that solely so they could say they were giving the Patreons stuff, because it wasn't like the Patreons were getting unusual amounts of comms re: DS! - on the contrary, they were getting about exactly as much as a large game seeking some feedback normally does.

(Source: I subscribed to the Patreon for a couple of months around release, and looked back to see what all the updates were - sparser than I'd expected, I'd actually have been annoyed if I was paying $9 a month for that - and note I'd subscribed to his Patreon some years before, when he was doing monthly D&D content mags, and that felt much more like it was worth $9/month).

where do you see DS! not serving the heroic tactical fantasy niche?

In that they chose a hyperspecific setting and made it significantly hard to use any other setting, and the setting they chose is basically "1970s prog rock album cover", which like, I get that has its fans, but I don't know any of them IRL lol. It's a real pity to me because a lot of the specific classes and the mechanics are cool, but everything else (including the races) is... less cool.