Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

[Reynard]

Alternatively, it's just a different story. The Exploration of Moria or The Fall of Baromir are two stories that take place in the middle of The Lord of the Rings.

Yes. But you said The Lord of the Rings, and that story begins and ends in Hobbiton.

 

[AnotherGuy]

It is definitionally not a complete story.

Well...if you want to change goal posts sure.

We play to find out, but when the GM comes up with an adventure (AP or otherwise), there is a story there.

Severin's understanding of the prophecy was different to Sammaster's and so he reforged the Cult of Dragon with a new purpose. His prayers where answered when his Mistress whispered to him of the dragon masks and with help he found them. He formed an alliance with powerful arcanists, the Thayan Resurrection, that could create and perform the necessary ritual to bring Her to the Material Plane. They decided on the site, the Well of Dragons, and so made the necessary preparations to bring tHEiR plan to fruition.

That is a story...and it continues.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well...if you want to change goal posts sure.

We play to find out, but when the GM comes up with an adventure (AP or otherwise), there is a story there.

Severin's understanding of the prophecy was different to Sammaster's and so he reforged the Cult of Dragon with a new purpose. His prayers where answered when his Mistress whispered to him of the dragon masks and with help he found them. He formed an alliance with powerful arcanists, the Thayan Resurrection, that could create and perform the necessary ritual to bring Her to the Material Plane. They decided on the site, the Well of Dragons, and so made the necessary preparations to bring tHEiR plan to fruition.

That is a story...and it continues.

Because IMO a story is defined after the fact, any part of it that has already happened and is now being told is at least part of a story. But whatever story you're now telling has to have happened so the telling can give it structure. To me, it's simply not a story without looking back.

 

[Reynard]

Well...if you want to change goal posts sure.

We play to find out, but when the GM comes up with an adventure (AP or otherwise), there is a story there.

Severin's understanding of the prophecy was different to Sammaster's and so he reforged the Cult of Dragon with a new purpose. His prayers where answered when his Mistress whispered to him of the dragon masks and with help he found them. He formed an alliance with powerful arcanists, the Thayan Resurrection, that could create and perform the necessary ritual to bring Her to the Material Plane. They decided on the site, the Well of Dragons, and so made the necessary preparations to bring tHEiR plan to fruition.

That is a story...and it continues.

You seem to think that I said that there is no story in RPGs, which is not what I said. I said stories emerge from play, in the context of fiction and rules they are presented in. Part and parcel with that is whatever background is established for the starting point. The fall of the Netherese empire is not the story of Rime of the Frost Maiden, it is context.

 

[GobHag]

Essentially, at any given moment, the player may choose to do anything (within the context of the fiction and rules). So if you decide ahead of time that Thing A Must Happen, you will almost surely run into situations where in order to make that to continue to be true, you are barred from certain choices. Note that this is different than making choices in character hoping for some outcome.

My view is that the thing being 'found out' during play might have minimal to no effect on outcome but can still be enjoyable and meaningful on the execution and details. Destination being locked doesn't deny the journey.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

This



As a DM I want to set up a situation and then let the players solve it. I dont have a correct/preferred way for it to be solved.

My entertainment is being along for the ride as the story emerges.

No different than sports where the "story" emerges during the game. The QB who throws 3 picks might redemption himself in the 4th quarter, a rookie might suddenly have the best game of thier life, or a coach might make a desperate decision that secures victory or ensures defeat.

Personally, I play TTRPGs because I like games. If I just wanted a story generator, I'd do collaborative writing with my friends. I've done that. It's fun. But it's a poor excuse for a game session.

OTOH, I absolutely believe that TTRPGs also have story elements. Playing to develop characters and plots, both collaboratively and personally, for both DMs and players, is a major element of what makes a TTRPG different from a board game or a miniatures wargame.

IMNSHO it's the combination that's important. As soon as you start talking about stories without games or games without stories is when RPGs stop working for me. There are some TTRPGers that I've played with that would be happier going back to wargaming. And there are some hardcore "story game" advocates that I really think should just go write a book. The nuanced balance that you get from socialization and rules is where TTRPGs live. Unfortunately, balance and nuance is often a difficult type of socialization for the internet at large.

Entirely agree with these thoughts. I've really leaned into just drafting a scenario and seeing where the PCs take it. We tell a story together, but it's the product of the game, not the other way around.

I've seen when players and GMs get too focused on the story they're telling ahead of the game they're playing. When their image of an ultrapowerful, ultracompetent character runs straight into a natural 1.

 

[Breaking Star Games]

I definitely agree that RPGs shine on those open-ended challenges where players can find solutions that surprise me. I won't get into any semantic arguments about defining story or telling a story at the table, but some fun food for thought.

Many writers describe their process as Gardener who doesn't have goals/plans and they discover their story as they are writing - often fleshing out driven characters who create the plot beats by the writer getting into their head (as opposed to Architect who thoroughly plans).

https://writingcooperative.com/gardeners-and-architects-f36352b8a63

So, this more freeform style is completely natural in other crafts and I believe humans are naturally inclined to storytelling - it's probably the oldest art even before language, narratives are how we remember things and parse the world. And this Garderner-style writing is how it happens in many RPGs but with other people as writers. But like this Gardener writer, they aren't necessarily in a Writer's Stance (at least not 100% of the time). They take the perspective of their character in an Actor Stance. And different table playstyles and systems will influence that.

I've definitely been chewing on Slugblaster's Beats where you have a pre-planned narrative arc which means between these planned beats, you don't progress it. It feels weird to me that the game takes the reins there. But those that checked out the Quinn's Quest video, he made it his GOTY, and I do agree with him on a lot of other games like Blades in the Dark and Mythic Bastionland.

 

[billd91]

You seem to think that I said that there is no story in RPGs, which is not what I said. I said stories emerge from play, in the context of fiction and rules they are presented in. Part and parcel with that is whatever background is established for the starting point. The fall of the Netherese empire is not the story of Rime of the Frost Maiden, it is context.

But you do keep returning to the idea that the story isn't what's being done at the table now, it's what you see and talk about when it's all done. And we are saying that's not the full truth. If you're playing, story's emerging now and can be talked about now and directed based on the agendas of everyone at the table. The story doesn't have to be complete to be a story.

 

[zakael19]

Essentially, at any given moment, the player may choose to do anything (within the context of the fiction and rules). So if you decide ahead of time that Thing A Must Happen, you will almost surely run into situations where in order to make that to continue to be true, you are barred from certain choices. Note that this is different than making choices in character hoping for some outcome.

I’d say there’s a couple different aspects here (and this is a yes, and). Presenting an invading army that will overwhelm the defenses of everything in their path unless the PCs take action is setting up space for them to make decisions. Obviously deciding “we’d rather leave” isn’t on the table if we’ve sat down to explore this scenario, but we’re also not saying “and the Warlord is the Fighter’s nemesis and during the climatic showdown he’ll have a chance at vengeance!”

We play to find out: can the heroes make enough allies and weaken the army sufficiently through their exploits that a victory can be wrested despite it all?

I am all for giving a player who has a cool idea the space to find further things out. If they want to say that the warlord’s lieutenant is a former raider who killed their parents and that’s their motivation here - the player should drive towards the goal with the actions and choices. As the GM I’m not going to pre-script the encounter, because that constrains the meaningfulness of what the players do to shape the outcomes.

 

[Umbran]

What do you think of TTRPGs (broadly) in relation to "story." Are RPGs "stories." Are they "story generators"? Something else?

Great questions!

I think we spin waaaaay to much over the distinctions here, like between, "...is a story," and, "...is a story generator" and other variations on the theme, and trying to impose them on one another, or feeling they are imposed upon us by others. Especially when we consider that not all RPGs have to be exactly the same thing! There can be games designed to do different things, and tables that choose different approaches.

Maybe Joe's game is a story, and Sarah's game is a story generator, and Frank doesn't care about story, he's just doing some great tactical dungeon crawling. And all that's okay. We can co-exist without imposing on each other what games must be.

How do the particular mechanics of a game interact with what you think the relationship is?

That's a huge question, because I play a lot of different games, so there isn't just one answer. Maybe in another post in the discussion....

For you, personally, are you telling a story when you play a TTRPG?

For me, there's very few things RPGs always are. I don't think I can recall any play of an RPG in which I didn't have a story in hand when all was said and done. I think the distinctions are all in what kinds of story (if any) we intend, and how we go about producing it.

Like, back in the 80s, when I first started, play was mostly TSR modules, very dungeon crawley, tactical, logistics-focused, and concerned with what the characters could accomplish. Story was the resulting "war stories" about those exploits, mostly focused, again, on the what, but typically left out the logistical bean-counting aspects of play.

As time went on, I became more interested in who the character was, and considering what they could do, and what they chose to do, as an expression of who they were. That grew even more quickly as I branched into other games, in other genres.

And, once I was thinking about who, then I was able to think about how the who changes over time (much like how the what changes with leveling up). And that brought me to something like story and character arc in a less tactical sense.

And, along with these changes came some real-world changes - my original modes of play were supported by 6-8 hour sessions, once or twice a week (or more, in long lazy summers). But adults have jobs, families, commitments and diverse interests, so length and frequency of sessions of play shrank.

With growing time constrains came choices - what produced the most entertaining experience for the people playing? At this point, there are board and computer games that do tactical and logistical play better, with less hassle for the players. But, we find not much does character-study and story play than an RPG.

Stories have a structure that does not really work in play. RPGs are messy, ephemeral things in play, with terrible pacing and contradictory plot elements.

I see this attitude a lot, but I end up feeling it is a bit overstated. I mean, yeah, my table isn't producing a polished tale like a published novel that's been through 17 rounds of editing and rewriting by a master of prose word choice. A table typically produces the equivalent of a first draft, with no editing. First drafts are always messy, need pacing improvement and all. I am not sure that means that a first draft isn't also a story, though.

Now, you can force games to be more like stories by demanding certain beats be present and forcing pacing, etc... But every single element that makes play more like a story makes it less like an RPG -- because RPGs are defined by their embrace of player agency.

Yeah, I find this overstated as well, especially as we leave the tactical and traditional play styles. There does not need to be a conflict between structure and pacing and player agency, so long as the players are also aware of structure and pacing and each other's agency.

As is probably obvious, I am an advocate of playing to find out and presenting situations rather than plots or adventures.

I think we collectively sometimes have a bit of an issue of eliding between definitions of "plot".

While in the written word, "plot" is a detailed series of events, each impacting the next, which are all written by the author before the readers ever see it. And that, of course, will tend to run afoul of player agency.

But I think there is a valid use that is more like, "The Duke has some goals, and will be taking actions towards those goals, and any time the PCs are interacting with those activities, they are involved in the Duke plot." This kind of "plot" is not necessarily agency-violating, so long as the GM has the Duke adapt to events as they unfold.