D&D General When Was it Decided Fighters Should Suck at Everything but Combat?

For a real life example of a fighting man that had many other skills, consider the Roman Legionnaire. Pretty much defines the basic D&D fighter. Sword, shield, armor, helmet. Kills things. Pillages the result. But when the legion wasn't fighting, it was the empire's engineering corp. Building roads, bridges, buildings, aqueducts, etc. Lots of non fighting skills there. Plus exploration, freight moving, and managing far flung provinces. More non fighting skills.

I think one way D&D lost its way was basing most of the Fighter's abilities on either STR or CON. Plus several editions of encouraging min/max character builds. PF1 didn't really change this. If a Fighter needs INT to spot the weak points in an opponent's armor, then all of a sudden, Fighters will start having extra skill points based on a higher INT. Or maybe create a feat/trait/background feature that lets a character use the INT bonus to hit instead of STR or DEX(*). The smarter character is better at seeing an opponent's weak spots.

* there may be one, hard to keep track of hundreds of feats scattered across many books.
 

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That might be an argument for intellectual or social skills in the way OD&D handled them; it wasn't a good answer to other sorts of physical skill, any more than it would have been representing combat with purely player narration.
What sort of physical skills are you thinking of that had a real impact on play?
 

For a real life example of a fighting man that had many other skills, consider the Roman Legionnaire. Pretty much defines the basic D&D fighter. Sword, shield, armor, helmet. Kills things. Pillages the result. But when the legion wasn't fighting, it was the empire's engineering corp. Building roads, bridges, buildings, aqueducts, etc. Lots of non fighting skills there. Plus exploration, freight moving, and managing far flung provinces. More non fighting skills.
That's similar to the sort of thing that led to my thinking. There are a ton of (non-spellcasting) fighter heroes in fiction that clearly don't fit into the "Thief/Rogue" archetype. But they are still good at things like sneaking, scouting, and the like. If the Ranger has to be a spellcaster, then the fighter has to be expanded enough to cover the skirmisher character as well as the frontline combatant. If the Barbarian is built around Rage, then Fighter has to cover characters like Conan and Fafhrd, although one could work in a little Rogue/Thief as well.

Similarly, "Swashbuckler" is as much a Fighter-archetype as it is a Rogue one. Madmartigan? He, too, may be multi-classed, but the "greatest swordsman who ever lived" had better be primarily a fighter, or the class is silly.

Even Aragorn is primarily not a spellcaster, doesn't wear armor except for battles, and mostly (exclusively in the books) fights with a sword, not a bow. In the movies, he has a short hunting bow that he can (and does) use in battles, but it's a secondary weapon for him. But yeah, he's skilled in wilderness lore, can move stealthily, and is a learned figure, but why does any of that make him "not a fighter?"

I think one way D&D lost its way was basing most of the Fighter's abilities on either STR or CON. Plus several editions of encouraging min/max character builds. PF1 didn't really change this. If a Fighter needs INT to spot the weak points in an opponent's armor, then all of a sudden, Fighters will start having extra skill points based on a higher INT. Or maybe create a feat/trait/background feature that lets a character use the INT bonus to hit instead of STR or DEX(*). The smarter character is better at seeing an opponent's weak spots.

* there may be one, hard to keep track of hundreds of feats scattered across many books.
I think D&D lost its way in the start by asserting that STR is the basis for melee combat. While arguments can be made for bludgeons, axes, polearms and the like being STR-based, the ability to use swords and spears effectively is primarily not based on strength, but rather on agility (DEX in D&D terms). Because D&D lumps armor and defense into one category, an argument can be made for that (a heavy enough blow can pierce armor), but that really isn't how swords work. Swinging harder not only doesn't help with accuracy, it actively hurts.

Short version: 5e has made progress by putting all the classes on a more even keel as regards proficiencies, but I wonder if some of the reasons they've had trouble making the Ranger class compelling (can't have the Ranger tread on the fighter's toes) is that a lot of the canonical characters we think of as "Rangers," like Lan, Robin Hood, Legolas, or Aragorn(*) should just be fighters. There's nothing like D&D spellcasting in their worlds, so the D&D "Ranger" doesn't fit.

(*) Aragorn is a special case, because clearly the D&D Ranger was sort of modeled after him, but there's a very legitimate argument to be made that Aragorn is better represented by the OG AD&D Paladin. He can cure wounds, especially the Black Breath (Athelas is a material component), has some ability to rebuke the undead, carries an heirloom sword, and has a special bond with a horse (Roheryn in the books). But really, he's just a fighter who's also stealthy, charismatic, and learned, and all his vaguely supernatural abilities are a result of his heritage (and age), not his occupation.
 

Any knight in any medieval movie or book etc.
You mean like Ned or Robb Stark, or John Snow; all of whom have multiple skills, are well-learned, persuasive, and can survive in the wilderness, track, sneak, ride, and are reasonably athletic?

Or the many knights of Arthurian and other Chivalric romance who are almost always skilled woodsmen AND accomplished courtiers in addition to being skilled combatants and accomplished riders?

Or the Samurai of Japanese legend (and reality) who were expected to cultivate artistic pursuits in addition to being able to use weapons well, both on horseback and not?

Or the various characters in "The Thirteenth Warrior," say? Many of whom were skilled in things other than just fighting. ALL of them were reasonably stealthy, perceptive, trained sailors, and soldiers who could ride horses and build siege defenses. Yes, they all had specialties, but like Roman Legionaires, they're definitely more than just combatants.

And then there's all the heroes of Greek myth and legend, most of whom are basically just fighters (albeit also often demigods), including Achilles, Odysseus, Hercules, Perseus, Theseus, Jason, and the rest of the crew of the Argo.

And I think that case can be made for just about ALL of the "Fighter types" in legends and fiction. Yes, they are skilled combatants, but that alone doesn't define them.
 


Any knight in any medieval movie or book etc.

This is a terrible example of somebody who’s only good at fighting. A knight is generally some form of landed nobility, with education and eloquence (and in myth lots of other virtues and follies). Possibly a courtier with plenty of social skills and leadership / knowledge related things.
 

You mean like Ned or Robb Stark, or John Snow; all of whom have multiple skills, are well-learned, persuasive, and can survive in the wilderness, track, sneak, ride, and are reasonably athletic?

Or the many knights of Arthurian and other Chivalric romance who are almost always skilled woodsmen AND accomplished courtiers in addition to being skilled combatants and accomplished riders?

Or the Samurai of Japanese legend (and reality) who were expected to cultivate artistic pursuits in addition to being able to use weapons well, both on horseback and not?

Or the various characters in "The Thirteenth Warrior," say? Many of whom were skilled in things other than just fighting. ALL of them were reasonably stealthy, perceptive, trained sailors, and soldiers who could ride horses and build siege defenses. Yes, they all had specialties, but like Roman Legionaires, they're definitely more than just combatants.

And then there's all the heroes of Greek myth and legend, most of whom are basically just fighters (albeit also often demigods), including Achilles, Odysseus, Hercules, Perseus, Theseus, Jason, and the rest of the crew of the Argo.

And I think that case can be made for just about ALL of the "Fighter types" in legends and fiction. Yes, they are skilled combatants, but that alone doesn't define them.

Oh, ninja’d by 18 minutes lol
 

When I think of interesting ways that games have looked at “how do we model strength in and out of combat” I point at stuff like Dungeon World’s “Bend Bars, Lift Gates” move. It hits the fiction of “hero who solves problems by applied strength and force” really well, with excellent potential downsides.
 

This is a terrible example of somebody who’s only good at fighting. A knight is generally some form of landed nobility, with education and eloquence (and in myth lots of other virtues and follies). Possibly a courtier with plenty of social skills and leadership / knowledge related things.
education in medieval is pretty much equal to really stupid in D&D fantasy world, being able to read and doing some basic math.

Also most fighters in wars in medieval or rome etc. (and in those movies) are not the elite leader. For each 1 person with charisma etc there are 100s who cant convince anyone.

King Arthur etc. are the elite dudes they are more like warlords, but the normal fighters, are not particularily intelligent/educated.

Look at actual "elite medieval fighters": Swiss mercenaries - Wikipedia or Landsknecht - Wikipedia you know what their great invention was which made them better? Longer sticks!
 

education in medieval is pretty much equal to really stupid in D&D fantasy world, being able to read and doing some basic math.

Also most fighters in wars in medieval or rome etc. (and in those movies) are not the elite leader. For each 1 person with charisma etc there are 100s who cant convince anyone.

King Arthur etc. are the elite dudes they are more like warlords, but the normal fighters, are not particularily intelligent/educated.

Look at actual "elite medieval fighters": Swiss mercenaries - Wikipedia or Landsknecht - Wikipedia you know what their great invention was which made them better? Longer sticks!

This is what we refer to in debating as “moving the goalposts.” You said a knight was a good example of a fighter in heavy armor who stood in the front lines, while in context that would be a member of elite society who had been trained in a wide variety of skills required to function therein.

The D&D trope is far more “debased mercenary” yes.
 

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