D&D General When Was it Decided Fighters Should Suck at Everything but Combat?

[Tesral]

What does everyone else think? Have fighters been shortchanged by being pigeon-holed as "the meat-shield class?"

Yes. Especially by the 3e skill system. Again D&D is a "No" system. Put down that interesting idea and get back in your box. You start with 2 skill points per level, less than the other core classes and you further handicap by non-class skills costing twice as much. Any skill that is not something to do with being a fighter is non class.

I fixed the system. Thieves keep a box of their own skill as per 2ed. Everyone gets four skills per level. No class/non-class skills. It's like telling me it is harder for me to learn to play the piano because I am a butcher not a librarian.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Marvel Super Heroes, in various versions. They pretty much all have both rules for rolling your own supers and for translating ones from the page onto the sheet.

FASERIP was the first RPG that really got me into modeling fictional characters and settings with game rules. I can't thank it enough for that!

 

[Bill Zebub]

The game needed a way to resolve characters being good at things other than combat, and basing it entirely on attributes is overly simplistic.

Right. So you resolve it through narration and problem solving, not things on the character sheet. If that's 50+% of the game, then it matters less who has more buttons on their character sheet.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Right. So you resolve it through narration and problem solving, not things on the character sheet. If that's 50+% of the game, then it matters less who has more buttons on their character sheet.

That is one way of solving it. I prefer a balance of in-character roleplay and robust, setting-modeling mechanics myself.

 

[JohnSnow]

This why Level Up has IMO a better class list. Not counting the many 3pp classes (several of which are not magical in nature at their core), 1pp mundane classes include the adept, fighter, marshal, ranger, rogue, and savant. Plenty of choices if you don't want cast spells or otherwise play a character with supernatural powers.

I think I would like Level Up if I were not pathologically opposed to making 5e (especially combat) more complex and tedious.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I sword fight as a hobby, so most attempts to add complexity to combat moves just translates to “more unrealistic naughty word that bugs the crap out of me.” Now, I have not explicitly delved into Level Up, but as an example, I hate 2024’s “mastery properties” and (for example) longswords that only so slashing damage.

But maybe I should give Level Up a look.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think I would like Level Up if I were not pathologically opposed to making 5e (especially combat) more complex and tedious.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I sword fight as a hobby, so most attempts to add complexity to combat moves just translates to “more unrealistic naughty word that bugs the crap out of me.” Now, I have not explicitly delved into Level Up, but as an example, I hate 2024’s “mastery properties” and (for example) longswords that only so slashing damage.

But maybe I should give Level Up a look.

It's a great game, but keep in mind I have no problem with complexity if it adds depth and more-or-less maintains setting logic. Not a fan of mastery properties either, but probably for different reasons than you.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Right. So you resolve it through narration and problem solving, not things on the character sheet. If that's 50+% of the game, then it matters less who has more buttons on their character sheet.

As I said, that might work for some things. I flat out don't think its going to resolve whether someone can climb something or swim. Or to the degree it can, if you wanted to do that you could do it with fighting, too. (In fact, I'll flat out say someone could probably do a better job of resolving combat with narration than trying to do so with swimming).

 

[Corinnguard]

It's a great game, but keep in mind I have no problem with complexity if it adds depth and more-or-less maintains setting logic. Not a fan of mastery properties either, but probably for different reasons than you.

One of the problems with Weapon Mastery in 2024 D&D is that only gives you one little perk. Ryoko's Guide to the Yokai Realms for 5e has something like it, but it offers a perk or two at every tier of gameplay.
Light Mastery
For weapons with the Light Property, you get Lightweight or Multiweapon Fighting at tier 1.

Lightweight
Prerequisites: martial level 2, proficiency with at least one Light weapon. While the only weapons you are wielding are Light weapons and you aren’t wearing a shield or heavy armour, your speed increases by 10 feet .

Multi-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: martial level 2, proficiency with at least one Light weapon. When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus action attack if the weapon is Light

By tier 2, you can perform a Superior Strike.

Superior Strike: Light
Prerequisites: martial level 6, a tier 1 Light advanced technique. You can perform a superior strike with any weapon that has the Light property

Tier 3 grants you Combination Strike or Reposte.

Combination Strike

Prerequisites: martial level 10, a tier 2 Light advanced technique.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, any attack roll you make as a bonus action this turn with a Light
weapon has advantage.

Riposte

Prerequisites: martial level 10, a tier 2 Light advanced technique. When you are wielding two Light weapons and a creature within your reach misses you with a melee weapon attack, you can use your reaction to make an attack against that creature with one of the weapons

And finally, Tier 4 with Light Mastery gets you Featherweight or Swift Striker.

Featherweight

Prerequisites: martial level 14, a tier 3 Light advanced technique. While the only weapons you are wielding are Light weapons and you aren’t wearing a shield or heavy armour, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and have advantage on Dexterity saving throws.

Swift Striker
Prerequisites: martial level 14, a tier 3 Light advanced technique. When you take the Attack action, if the only weapons you are wielding are Light weapons, you can make one additional attack with a Light weapon as a part of that action, but you do not add your ability modifier to the damage, unless that modifier is negative

All of the weapon types have these Advanced Weapon Mastery trees in Ryoko's Guide to the Yokai Realms. They're okay IMO, but kind of restrictive as they require you to use a specific weapon type in order to benefit from them. I prefer Level Up's numerous Combat Traditions to them.

 

[Corinnguard]

But maybe I should give Level Up a look.

Level Up offers up quite a number of new and innovative ways to play 5e.

 

[TheSword]

I personally prefer the 1d10 bonus to any check rather than the pretty specific circumstantial bonuses that knacks give you. It comes online for everything earlier and has more impact. Through I think the knacks are in themselves interesting.