D&D General Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities

But NPCs cannot remove PC powers
What? Where did you pull this blanket statement from?
Don't get me wrong, it shouldn't be done without good reason, but it's DnD. If you're fighting the avatar of the god of magic, you better believe he could mess with the spellcasters' spells. Remove some of them, swap'em round, random bonanza, you name it.
If you're fighting a memory slug and it sucks on your brains, yeah you might lose a class feature for a bit.

If (and this has happened before) you make a bet with an extraplanar entity on a game of lawn darts that you'll forfeit your ability to magically heal if you lose, and they'll save a city if you win.. and you lose ... yes, you've lost Lay on Hands and access to any healing spells. As the DM I will probably throw the PC a bone at some point in the near future and give them something so they don't feel like they totally lost out for trying something noble, but yes NPCs can remove PC powers.

"Can't interact in any way with the meta?" Lol I'm sorry what, what makes you say that? We've literally had very powerful vindictive villain discover a player's identity in real life and try to sever their connection to their characters in the game by attempting to destroy their eternal hero statue in the immortal city of Tanelorn. We had a whole birthday session (at the player's request) based around the siege of the city and the all-stars characters from previous campaigns coming out of retirement to defend it.

I bought an illithid mask for the occasion to really spark some joy and terror and give life to the illithilich villain (Happy birthday, Chris!)
 
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The patron is an NPC, and therefore run by the DM. But NPCs cannot remove PC powers, or stop them levelling, or in anyway interact with the meta. They can only act within the game world. And Cthulhu is not going to turn up in the game world to stomp a PC for being nice to little old ladies.
But he might turn the PC into a Slug From Beyond the Stars if he doesn't work towards bringing about the end of the world like he promised Cthulhu he would.
Have you ever read a dictionary? Words have more than one definition. And "formally set forth agreement" is not the only definition of the word "pact". And the D&D rules (deliberately) do not tell you which one applies - because it could be any of them.
Sure. It might be the meaning, "He pact his suitcase for his flight to Europe."

C'mon dude. It's clearly an agreement, covenant, or compact. Since that's the sort of pact that can be binding in the case of a warlock. It doesn't specify, because it's obviously not, "An agreement or treaty between two nations."
And even "formally set forth agreements" can (and often are) be broken.
Not when they are magically binding like is specified with Warlocks.

"Stories of warlocks binding themselves to fiends are widely known."

"Some patrons collect warlocks, doling out mystic knowledge relatively freely or boasting of their ability to bind mortals to their will."

And if the pacts weren't binding(or at least always honored by the patron) in both directions, there would be no warlocks with a wisdom higher than 6.
 

But he might turn the PC into a Slug From Beyond the Stars if he doesn't work towards bringing about the end of the world like he promised Cthulhu he would.
If you think that, you haven't understood Cthulhu. Cthulhu is beyond noticing their human followers. Cthulhu doesn't care about ending the world. If that happens, it's just treading on an ant when their followers poke them awake.

And this is the thing. No matter how legalistically you interpret class fluff, these things are clear:

The player chooses their patron, from within a very board range of parameters.

The player decides the nature and terms of the pact.

Thus, it is very easy for the player to choose a pact that will be supportive, indifferent or powerless to interfere with how they play their character.

Thus, if there is a conflict with the patron, it is because the player has chosen to set it up. Just as a rogue player may choose to have their character owe money to a fat slimy crime lord. The DM will then become involved in how the conflict plays out.
 
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What? Where did you pull this blanket statement from?
Seems pretty close to word for word with the first & definitely in sentiment for both. I'd not be surprised if one of the videos where Crawford gushed on exactly that has him saying it there too.

Unfortunately it's a badly designed message said so loudly & clearly in 5e's design along with a decade of messaging from wotc that
The rules say otherwise. The DM does in fact have a say in how active the patron is. At least in 5e.

"Work with your DM to determine how big a part your pact will play in your character's adventuring career."
Except wotc has effectively redefined what "work with your GM" means by deciding that the GM is no longer a mere role at the game table & treating the GM "roleJob" as simply a service provider for so long. You need only look at the recent tortle thread for hundreds of pages with examples of how that choice of bad design & messaging where the GM saying "that PC doesn't fit because $reason but these seemingly important parts could kinda fit [like so] & I'm willing to add to/alter this bit of the world [in this way] to carry a little more, but the full tortle still doesn't fit" is repeatedly painted as the GM refusing to "work with" the player who has decided to run with the baton wotc loudly & clearly handed them by deciding "I want X in every way & your world will allow it because it's MyChArEcTeR Do your Job" .
 

What doesn't get mentioned enough is the positive thing about players having characters that are clerics, paladins and warlocks - which is the opportunity for collaborative world building.
Contracts, oaths, alignment, rituals, orders, attire, bonds, ideals, flaws, relationships with like and non-like minded individuals and factions, allies and enemies, public perception, side quests, tailored spells and invocations, relics, holy symbols & spell foci, theological or ideological doctrine and arguments, communication (if any) with the patron...etc

And this does not have to be limited to the player with that character alone to create ideas, the whole table can offer input as you pull the ones that best suit the campaign and the table.

You could also have a player that is actually comfortable not peeking behind the curtain, hoping to be surprised by the DM's ingenuity.

If you really have an asshat who wishes to ignore it all, without any explanation or consequences, then they are likely not suited to your playstyle.
 
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So if the GM wants of course the gods can take away the cleric's powers and the patrons the warlock's powers. Though it probably would be the best to inform the player that this is how it works before they choose the class.

But the reason why this is more relevant to warlocks rather than clerics, paladins or druids, is that thematically the warlock/patron relationship has chances to be way more antagonistic than on the divine side. The divine caster might be expected to some degree uphold and follow the tenets of their deity, but that character probably is an adherent of that deity because they agree with those tenets, so a conflict is far more unlikely. Yes, there could be some crisis of faith narrative, but that is not the core theme of those classes.

The core narrative of warlock however is bargaining for power. What would you be willing to do for power? What (and who) would you sacrifice? And for such themes to work, the patron must ask things that test the limits of the character and they need to have real leverage.

And yeah, you don't need to play it that way, but that is the inspiration of the class. And if you don't want to do that, and just have the patron as some impersonal or immaterial power source that is no longer actively relevant, then that just makes the warlock a sorcerer.
 

So if the GM wants of course the gods can take away the cleric's powers and the patrons the warlock's powers. Though it probably would be the best to inform the player that this is how it works before they choose the class.

But the reason why this is more relevant to warlocks rather than clerics, paladins or druids, is that thematically the warlock/patron relationship has chances to be way more antagonistic than on the divine side. The divine caster might be expected to some degree uphold and follow the tenets of their deity, but that character probably is an adherent of that deity because they agree with those tenets, so a conflict is far more unlikely. Yes, there could be some crisis of faith narrative, but that is not the core theme of those classes.

The core narrative of warlock however is bargaining for power. What would you be willing to do for power? What (and who) would you sacrifice? And for such themes to work, the patron must ask things that test the limits of the character and they need to have real leverage.

And yeah, you don't need to play it that way, but that is the inspiration of the class. And if you don't want to do that, and just have the patron as some impersonal or immaterial power source that is no longer actively relevant, then that just makes the warlock a sorcerer.
By that logic, we should also just eliminate the Cleric, Paladin, and Druid. Just play a Sorcerer if you don't want to be constantly bothered by things actively trying to ruin your life!

Alternatively, we could accept that people have different understandings or appreciations of what the Warlock provides, and that difference actually does matter, even though not everyone wants to engage 1,000,000% full-bore with every possible implication of the original inspirations.

Like, I dunno about you, but I'm not super jazzed about being a servant of Big Chuck, even though that's precisely what the inspiration is for the Paladin class. (The Palatine Knights--the "Paladins"--were the most prestigious knights under Charlemagne, and written about extensively centuries after their deaths in the Matter of France.) But I'm pretty hyped to play a knight-errant healer-champion-soldier righting wrongs in the name of one's god, despite that being totally unlike what the Paladins did.

I could go on (clerics being scribes, for instance), but I think the point is made: we interact with the class on many levels, and different people want different things out of it. It's perfectly reasonable to want to have just that little air of "bad boy mage", without being superduperultra excited to get screwed over the instant you put a toe out of line. 3e already taught us that with its divine magic rules and how poorly they were received by most players, creating a power that the GM could in theory use but which they functionally never would because doing so would be a gross betrayal of most groups' social contracts--at which point, what is the point if it's never going to be used?

And that's precisely why my advice above was about setting the tone before any of the level-ups or power-gains were to be had--moreover, to put the leverage on by giving the player the feeling of being the one getting the "good" end of the deal when the truth is rather the reverse, but the Warlock simply cannot see how their short-sighted pursuit leads to long-term major gains for the forces of evil.

And if you wanted classes where they all had serious, enforced built-in flavor, that ship sailed ages ago. The designers of 5e themselves admitted the Fighter was as bland as oatmeal, one of Mr. Mearls' personal regrets about 5e's design. Demanding that only certain classes get chained to their narrative implications, while others aren't....despite them being balanced with the assumption that everyone is getting to use their class as-written consistently? Yeah, not seeing that working well among many...if any...groups.
 

I think the question is simple.

Deities are typically way more powerful than patrons and have more access to their magical followers mind and life. So clerics are more likely to be prechosen to be followers of a deity's tenets than a patrons warlock.

So I'd say a deity is less likely to need to remove a clerics powers without the actions of another deity or a patrons being involved. So it rarely happens. And when done atonement is available or the other deity can snatch them up.

Patrons dont have the power to remove or take back given power outside of contracts which say so (player's choice), so patrons wil more likely use other Warlocks or other minions to police underlines
 

I think the question is simple.

Deities are typically way more powerful than patrons and have more access to their magical followers mind and life. So clerics are more likely to be prechosen to be followers of a deity's tenets than a patrons warlock.

So I'd say a deity is less likely to need to remove a clerics powers without the actions of another deity or a patrons being involved. So it rarely happens. And when done atonement is available or the other deity can snatch them up.

Patrons dont have the power to remove or take back given power outside of contracts which say so (player's choice), so patrons wil more likely use other Warlocks or other minions to police underlines
Personally, I think it's even simpler than that.

People are stuck on an idea of "temptation" and "contract" which forces the patron to either be a raging douche, or a functional non-entity.

Change the how and the why, and all these problems go away. Make patrons far-sighted and patient. Make them manipulative and deceptive. Hell, consider even just the manipulations of Mizora from BG3: she stipulated a contract Wyll thought was perfectly unobjectionable, which included the line that his targets could only include (amongst a handful of similar things) "the heartless"--which makes Karlach technically a valid target, as her heart was forcibly removed and replaced with an infernal device, making her, technically, "heartless" despite being one of the most heart-full people in the whole of Faerun.

I don't even think Mizora is all that good of a patron, and she's still beating the pants off folks hand-wringing over neutered patrons.

We are the dungeon's masters. We have the entire breadth of human creativity at our fingertips. We should be using it!
 

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