D&D 5E (2024) Infiltration with a familliar

[Shiroiken]

This really isn't much different than the rogue PC sneaking ahead in most dungeon explorations, except the cost of failure is lower. My group currently has a familiar that they use as a bat to do advance scouting in caverns, and it works pretty well for our group. The players listen to my description, which they would have to anyway, then decide on a course of action as a group. Technically the owner of the familiar would have the final say, but they tend to agree. There's occasional complications, as occupants of the caves snack on the familiar or door and other obstacles get in the way. I haven't yet had an intelligent resident kill the familiar, but if it happened, it would definitely alert them to shenanigans. Oh, and the bat doesn't trigger any traps, so they still have to deal with those.

As for the heist, I'd just give them a general map in advance. They'll know what rooms lead where, but they won't know most of the occupants, which should be patrolling and moving around. The spider isn't likely to discover any traps, so they'll still have to deal with those. The only major benefit they'll have is knowing the shortest route and not being taken in by any dead ends. They'll learn more if you use a linear layout, but since this is a heist, I'm assuming it's a typical building with multiple entrances and a circular flow.

 

[TheSword]

This really isn't much different than the rogue PC sneaking ahead in most dungeon explorations, except the cost of failure is lower. My group currently has a familiar that they use as a bat to do advance scouting in caverns, and it works pretty well for our group. The players listen to my description, which they would have to anyway, then decide on a course of action as a group. Technically the owner of the familiar would have the final say, but they tend to agree. There's occasional complications, as occupants of the caves snack on the familiar or door and other obstacles get in the way. I haven't yet had an intelligent resident kill the familiar, but if it happened, it would definitely alert them to shenanigans. Oh, and the bat doesn't trigger any traps, so they still have to deal with those.

As for the heist, I'd just give them a general map in advance. They'll know what rooms lead where, but they won't know most of the occupants, which should be patrolling and moving around. The spider isn't likely to discover any traps, so they'll still have to deal with those. The only major benefit they'll have is knowing the shortest route and not being taken in by any dead ends. They'll learn more if you use a linear layout, but since this is a heist, I'm assuming it's a typical building with multiple entrances and a circular flow.

Exactly it’s more deigned for buildings in a heist campaign rather than a classic dungeon. Museum, Warehouse, Nobles Manor, Livery Stables etc. Multiple access.

Just giving the details is an option. That is the default in Golden Vault. I guess that discovery phase is part of the fun of a heist. Scouting physically, gathering info from the locals, getting the blueprints from the guilds, disguising yourself as a visiting interested party, attending a gala etc. just handing out the info feels a bit like short-change though it’s going to depend on the group.

Point taken though.

 

[zakael19]

This sounds very interesting and simpler. What kind of things can be picked from the table? This was essentially what I was aiming at. The successes determine how far you get before being forced to turn back or discovered.

It did also run through my mind that you could use this in a slightly different way - as an action for a hireling. Or even as an endeavors for a PC that wanted to infiltrate somewhere in their down time but it would need some tinkering

Draw Steel! has a downtime activity that's basically that yeah, "gather info to set up for the next objective."

Here's an example of a "Scout Ahead" move:

Scout Ahead

When you go off on your own to explore a dangerous area, say how you do it and roll+ STAT (per Defy Danger): on a 7+, you make it back safely and the GM describes what you found. Then, on a 10+, pick 2; on a 7-9, pick 1:
• You got away clean, rousing no suspicions
• You noticed something out of place or other-
wise not what it seemed
• You determined who or what was in charge
• You spotted something valuable or useful
• You identified the biggest threat or danger
• You were able to sneak something out
• You made some preparation to exploit on your return
On a 6-, choose 1:
• You make it back to the others, with trouble hot on your heels
• You’re missing in action, the details to be revealed later

Another thing I'll toss out there is how myself and many other's run pre-score Gather Info in games like Blades in the Dark: we encourage each PC to come up with an idea of what they want to try to get details about, and then figure out how they do that. Their roll from that determines how good the info is, starting with barebones and going up to very useful and specific.

As an example, maybe the Fighter wants to go fit in with the guards at their tavern and uses his knowledge of whatever to seem like "one of the boys/girls" and wants to get an idea of how they patrol; or the rogue wants to see if the smith who made the locks has models in their workshop; or the wizard wants to get a rough idea of the floorpan via their familiar; or the bard wants to schmooze with people who guest there and tease out details, whatever.

That way everybody gets a short scene and contributes.

Edit: oh right, I forgot that Daggerheart ported the core mechanics of Blades in the Dark over via an Environment capsule:

Prep Work - Passive: Prior to the Heist, each PC has the opportunity to gather a key piece of information, surveil the location, or acquire a helpful tool or resource. Give each player the opportunity to describe one obstacle they expect to encounter and how they set themselves up to overcome it, then have them make an action roll. On a success, they get the advantage or asset they sought. On a success with Fear, it’s less useful than they expected (for example, they discover the location of a hidden access point but learn that breaching it will likely be diffi cult and noisy).
How does the PC gain this advantage? Do they go it alone or ask for help? What unforeseen complications arise during the Heist itself?

 

[Umbran]

What are your thoughts? How would you change it? Could it work?

My thought is that it doesn't happen to me, personally, frequently enough to need a special subsystem. However, having played far too much Shadowrun in my day, I recognize that running it as normal adventuring would be a drag for most of hte players, unless there is other action happening concurrently. The idea of abstracting it out is the direction I'd go too - I'd just use an ad hoc skill challenge for it.

In a skill challenge form, other party members could assist, if they have ideas that would reasonably function. Guidance on what, say, an exterior distraction, or creative spell use by the party, might influence the DCs or rolls might be in order.

 

[Sulicius]

As a DM I have gotten so bored of the familiar-scouting-the-entire-dungeon metagame that I nerfed the spell to have its telepathic connection be 30 ft. This way the PC can only scout 1-2 rooms ahead, making the gameplay loop between scouting and the party entering a new room smaller.

I know there are a dozen ways to halt a familiar, but I have just grown tired of it. The entire setting has to be reinvented just to allow for one spell? Then I rather change the spell.

And I have never had players cast Arcane Eye or Clairvoyance in the 8 years I have been playing, so those are not an issue to me.

I appreciate the effort in making the subsystem and it looks cool, but I prefer my solution.

 

[TheSword]

As an example, maybe the Fighter wants to go fit in with the guards at their tavern and uses his knowledge of whatever to seem like "one of the boys/girls" and wants to get an idea of how they patrol; or the rogue wants to see if the smith who made the locks has models in their workshop; or the wizard wants to get a rough idea of the floorpan via their familiar; or the bard wants to schmooze with people who guest there and tease out details, whatever.

That way everybody gets a short scene and contributes.

My thought is that it doesn't happen to me, personally, frequently enough to need a special subsystem. However, having played far too much Shadowrun in my day, I recognize that running it as normal adventuring would be a drag for most of hte players, unless there is other action happening concurrently. The idea of abstracting it out is the direction I'd go too - I'd just use an ad hoc skill challenge for it.

In a skill challenge form, other party members could assist, if they have ideas that would reasonably function. Guidance on what, say, an exterior distraction, or creative spell use by the party, might influence the DCs or rolls might be in order.

So effectively, abstract that further to a party wide skill challenge.

The familiar might be one way of acquiring knowledge for the wizard PC, but the bard might go and busk across the street, the fighter might bribe an off duty guard, the rogue might spy for the rooftops for a night.

I do like the mishaps and ever increasing knowledge elements of the first draft. I’ll have a play around and see what else I can come up with.

 

[Umbran]

So effectively, abstract that further to a party wide skill challenge.

The familiar might be one way of acquiring knowledge for the wizard PC, but the bard might go and busk across the street, the fighter might bribe an off duty guard, the rogue might spy for the rooftops for a night.

I was initially thinking mostly immediately at the time the infiltration is ocurring - the party starts a ruckus across the street to get the attention of guards inside, so they are less likely to notice the infiltrator, or the like.

It can be broadened out into an overall "legwork" challange, but that's a bit more than the OP really seemed to be driving at.

I do like the mishaps and ever increasing knowledge elements of the first draft. I’ll have a play around and see what else I can come up with.

I'd say that even in the basic skill challenge approach, the mishaps are a cool concept - when you're narrating the challenge, those are things that happen on the failures, making the challenge more dynamic.

 

[Piperken]

...What are your thoughts? How would you change it? Could it work?

I think what you have proposed here already is in the direction you'd like to go?

Some have mentioned a more abstract system like what some authors have used, with a PbtA/downtime kind of roll.

I've used a version proposed here for stakeouts etc. in my game.

From the perspective of sending in something more discreet or tiny i.e. a familiar, small beast or wildshape druid, taking more time to consider what threats change or loom larger will help with adjudication. e.g. Well, you're tiny now. It's a crowded party. Someone might not like, or is afraid of spiders. If you're spotted, you might get smished. You might get smished anyways, just on accident! How do you want to navigate all that?