D&D General Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities

[Maxperson]

Are you asserting things like levels and classes actually exist in the fiction outside of a LitRPG style of play?

No. I'm saying the classes and levels are built to match the fiction. In the fiction the fledgling wannabe warlock contacts some unknown entity and blindly makes a pact. The rules call that level 1 warlock and give it the mechanic Level 1 Pact Magic.

The fiction and mechanics need to be in alignment or it causes a disconnect.

 

[Scribe]

Yours, maybe.

Is it not the default assumption, especially within D&D, to have the GM take on that responsibility?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What fiction? The three paragraph fiction written in the PHB only mentions single entities.

Under archefey patron:

Or you might call on a spectrum of Fey, weaving a web of favors and debts.

Under celestial patron:

Or you might call on numerous such beings as you pursue goals aligned with theirs.

 

[TwoSix]

So in your game the players decide the consequences of their actions?

In my games, I frame the next scene based on the current setup and the results of the resolution engine. Sometimes that framing ends up being consequential, but that's the nature of building out an ongoing story.

I do not judge or evaluate. I extrapolate.

 

[Scribe]

In my games, I frame the next scene based on the current setup and the results of the resolution engine. Sometimes that framing ends up being consequential, but that's the nature of building out an ongoing story.

I do not judge or evaluate. I extrapolate.

Right, so extrapolate on a Paladin spitting on their cosmic powered, source of their power, oath.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm saying the classes and levels are built to match the fiction.

And you are completely wrong. Classes and levels do not exist apart from for PCs - that's why NPCs don't have them.

 

[TwoSix]

Right, so extrapolate on a Paladin spitting on their cosmic powered, source of their power, oath.

What did they do? More crucially, why did they do it? What story beat did the player want to evoke?

I would hope we're not assuming reactionary players who do stuff "just because".

 

[Scribe]

What did they do? More crucially, why did they do it? What story beat did the player want to evoke?

It doesn't matter? Heck, make it easier. A Cleric turns their back on their God, renouncing them, or actively working counter to the God's will, aims, goals, nature.

I fail to see why that God would continue to empower that Cleric.

 

[TwoSix]

It doesn't matter? Heck, make it easier. A Cleric turns their back on their God, renouncing them, or actively working counter to the God's will, aims, goals, nature.

I fail to see why that God would continue to empower that Cleric.

In my games, the Cleric is not actively channeling a God's power. The cleric is tapping into the Divine power source. A god acts as mentor to the cleric if they swear oaths to them, but has no power to turn off the connection. Gods and mortal religious entities certainly don't advertise that fact, but clerics who turn away from their patron discover that truth soon enough.

I adopted that logic a long time ago (thanks to Eberron) specifically to not deal with annoying game assumptions of gods turning off the "spigot".

 

[Maxperson]

And you are completely wrong. Classes and levels do not exist apart from for PCs - that's why NPCs don't have them.

In 5e there are NPCs that do have them. I believe they took it out for 5.5e, but there's no reason a DM can't or shouldn't make NPCs with class levels.