D&D General Rules that weren't...

[Remathilis]

Has anyone tried action declaration before initiative is rolled, ala older editions? I know there’s speed factor in the 2014 DMG that I’ve thought hard about using.

We did try it in 2e. Declare, roll, modify. Wasn't a fan. To many times spellcasters lost their turn due to their targets no longer being viable.

 

[Xenolith234]

We did try it in 2e. Declare, roll, modify. Wasn't a fan. To many times spellcasters lost their turn due to their targets no longer being viable.

Makes sense, though I’d say the same thing sorta happens in normal 5e initiative. Players may decide on an action while waiting for their turn, then the situation changes by the time their turn arrives and they hem and haw about what to do since what they were going to do is no longer valid.

 

[Charlaquin]

Has anyone tried action declaration before initiative is rolled, ala older editions? I know there’s speed factor in the 2014 DMG that I’ve thought hard about using.

I have, and I have mixed feelings about it. First of all, I strongly prefer @mearls’ Greyhawk Initiative from an old Unearthed Arcana for this than the Speed Factor initiative in the 2014 DMG, and would highly recommend giving it a try if you want a declare-then-act system. A lot of people worry that it will slow things down by re-rolling initiative every round, but in my experience the amount of actual time spent is about the same, but it actually feels faster because the dynamic turn order from round to round keeps everyone on the edge of their seats.

What I really don’t like about it is the possibility of players losing their action due to changing circumstances making the action they declared no longer possible when their turn comes up. The solution I eventually landed on was to roll after acting instead of before. Rather than the roll representing the wind-up for your action, it represents the recovery time. Same dynamic turn order, same tradeoffs of bigger actions making you slower, but instead of declaring an action at the beginning of your turn, rolling, and then waiting for your initiative count to come up before you can execute the action, you instead take an action on your turn as normal, then roll initiative to determine when your turn will happen next round. I absolutely love it. First time I introduced it my players were a bit hesitant because they thought it sounded complicated, but they were willing to try, and after the first session using it, I literally had a player tell me “I couldn’t look at my phone the whole time because I was too engaged with the combat.” We’ve been using it happily ever since, and my players love it. They caught on quickly; it looks a lot more complicated on paper than it actually ends up being in play.

Here’s my version:

Spoiler

At the start of the first round, roll a die based on your character’s size to determine your Initiative.

Size	Initiative Die
Tiny	1d4
Small	1d6
Medium	1d8
Large	1d10
Huge or Gargantuan	1d12

Creatures take turns in ascending order of Initiative. If two or more PCs have the same Initiative, the players decide what order their characters take their turns in. If two or more monsters or NPCs have the same Initiative, the DM decides what order they take their turns in. If any PCs have the same initiative as any monsters or NPCs, they take turns in descending order of Dexterity scores, with PCs winning ties.

Your Turn
On your turn, you can move up to your speed and take up to one action and one bonus action. The actions and bonus actions you take during your turn determine your Initiative on the following round.

Attacks
If you make attack on your turn, roll the damage dice of the weapon used to make the attack, or 1d4 if the attack was an unarmed strike. The result is your Initiative on the next round.

Spells
If you cast a spell on your turn, roll 1d4 if the spell requires verbal components, 1d4 if it requires somatic components, and 1d4 if it requires material components, and add the results together. The total is your Initiative on the next round.

Items
If you use an item or activate a magic item on your turn, roll 1d6. If the item had to be retrieved from a pack or other container, roll another 1d6 and add the results together. The total is your Initiative on the next round.

Other Actions
If you take any other action during your turn, or end your turn without taking an action, roll your Size-based Initiative die. The total is your Initiative on the next round.

Multiple Actions
If you take more than one of the above actions on your turn, use the highest result rolled as your initiative and ignore the rest.

 

[Xenolith234]

I have, and I have mixed feelings about it. First of all, I strongly prefer @mearls’ Greyhawk Initiative from an old Unearthed Arcana for this than the Speed Factor initiative in the 2014 DMG, and would highly recommend giving it a try if you want a declare-then-act system. A lot of people worry that it will slow things down by re-rolling initiative every round, but in my experience the amount of actual time spent is about the same, but it actually feels faster because the dynamic turn order from round to round keeps everyone on the edge of their seats.

What I really don’t like about it is the possibility of players losing their action due to changing circumstances making the action they declared no longer possible when their turn comes up. The solution I eventually landed on was to roll after acting instead of before. Rather than the roll representing the wind-up for your action, it represents the recovery time. Same dynamic turn order, same tradeoffs of bigger actions making you slower, but instead of declaring an action at the beginning of your turn, rolling, and then waiting for your initiative count to come up before you can execute the action, you instead take an action on your turn as normal, then roll initiative to determine when your turn will happen next round. I absolutely love it. First time I introduced it my players were a bit hesitant because they thought it sounded complicated, but they were willing to try, and after the first session using it, I literally had a player tell me “I couldn’t look at my phone the whole time because I was too engaged with the combat. We’ve been using it happily ever since, and my players love it. They caught on quickly; it looks a lot more complicated on paper than it actually ends up being in play.

Here’s my version:

Spoiler

At the start of the first round, roll a die based on your character’s size to determine your Initiative.

Size	Initiative Die
Tiny	1d4
Small	1d6
Medium	1d8
Large	1d10
Huge or Gargantuan	1d12

Creatures take turns in ascending order of Initiative. If two or more PCs have the same Initiative, the players decide what order their characters take their turns in. If two or more monsters or NPCs have the same Initiative, the DM decides what order they take their turns in. If any PCs have the same initiative as any monsters or NPCs, they take turns in descending order of Dexterity scores, with PCs winning ties.

Your Turn
On your turn, you can move up to your speed and take up to one action and one bonus action. The actions and bonus actions you take during your turn determine your Initiative on the following round.

Attacks
If you make attack on your turn, roll the damage dice of the weapon used to make the attack, or 1d4 if the attack was an unarmed strike. The result is your Initiative on the next round.

Spells
If you cast a spell on your turn, roll 1d4 if the spell requires verbal components, 1d4 if it requires somatic components, and 1d4 if it requires material components, and add the results together. The total is your Initiative on the next round.

Items
If you use an item or activate a magic item on your turn, roll 1d6. If the item had to be retrieved from a pack or other container, roll another 1d6 and add the results together. The total is your Initiative on the next round.

Other Actions
If you take any other action during your turn, or end your turn without taking an action, roll your Size-based Initiative die. The total is your Initiative on the next round.

Multiple Actions
If you take more than one of the above actions on your turn, use the highest result rolled as your initiative and ignore the rest.

Aha, that actually sounds a little like Angry GM’s recovery time system he came up with a little bit ago: Fixing Initiative Because I Want To (Part II): Angry’s Recovery Time Initiative System | The Angry GM

 

[Reynard]

What if we got rid of initiative entirely and everyone wrote down their action(s) and then revealed, with everything happening simultaneously and the GM adjudicating the fallout?

 

[Charlaquin]

Aha, that actually sounds like Angry GM’s recovery time system he came up with a little bit ago: Fixing Initiative Because I Want To (Part II): Angry’s Recovery Time Initiative System | The Angry GM

Yes, very similar! I go to 12 instead of only 10 to line up with weapon dice, and I have spells be based on number of different components instead of whether or not you upcast them. But that’s just small details, the fundamental concept is the same. I actually had the idea independently around the same time he released this article for general access. I do really like his full version with the “recovering” status, but I didn’t adopt it cause my players were already intimidated by the basic version. Didn’t want to change too many rules at once, but I would consider suggesting it for the next campaign I run for the same group of players.

 

[Charlaquin]

What if we got rid of initiative entirely and everyone wrote down their action(s) and then revealed, with everything happening simultaneously and the GM adjudicating the fallout?

I’m a fan of initiative-free combat systems, but this isn’t how I’d prefer to handle it. Rather, I’d say just resolve combat actions the same way you resolve out of combat actions - ask a player what they do. If it can be resolved immediately, resolve it and then move to someone else. If it takes time, put it in a mental queue to be resolved and ask the next person what they do. Include monster actions either by treating them like players whose actions also need to be included before you circle back around to people who have already taken a turn, or by making their actions complications and consequences for player actions (or a mix of both).

 

[Reynard]

I’m a fan of initiative-free combat systems, but this isn’t how I’d prefer to handle it. Rather, I’d say just resolve combat actions the same way you resolve out of combat actions - ask a player what they do. If it can be resolved immediately, resolve it and then move to someone else. If it takes time, put it in a mental queue to be resolved and ask the next person what they do. Include monster actions either by treating them like players whose actions also need to be included before you circle back around to people who have already taken a turn, or by making their actions complications and consequences for player actions (or a mix of both).

Essentially the Daggerheart method.

 

[Charlaquin]

Essentially the Daggerheart method.

Is it? I haven’t read Daggerheart, but it works well for Dungeon World.

 

[Remathilis]

What if we got rid of initiative entirely and everyone wrote down their action(s) and then revealed, with everything happening simultaneously and the GM adjudicating the fallout?

I think you just invented Daggerheart