D&D General Using Paladin and Warlock to Remake Bard (+)

[doctorbadwolf]

Agree with most, but...

I would improve d4 to d6 simply because I hate that cursed die.

Fair. It isnt a huge difference.

Halfcasting is OK for bards if compensated elsewhere,
I even have the table for halfcasters that gain new spell levels at the rate of full casters, but capped at 5th level and keeping Spell point budget mostly the same:
View attachment 430318
1st table is official, 2nd table is modified for faster spell level gains.

Nice. Yeah i think that balancing Songs at higher levels on spell levels should work. Then at the levels where they would otherwise gain 6,7,8,9 level spells they gain songs.

I thought about making them spells and keeping bard spellcasting intact other than losing magical secrets but...idk

Help as Bonus action is a low impact feature, it should stay in Tier1.

As for auras, they could be always on, just changing them as a Bonus action at will.
maybe add scaling at various levels for radius increase, 30,60,90,120,150ft

True. But then is it too much to have them also have a group buff version of bardic inspiration?

 

[Reynard]

I like it. In general, I think you could use the Warlock structure as a foundation for a bunch of classes, especially if you allow for ritual casting to cover out of combat utility stuff. A very vancian (as in, Jack Vance's Dying Earth) wizard, for example, is probably better modelled after the Warlock than the current wizard.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I guess i have a hard time envisioning what a Bard is outside of D&D.

I cant really pull a charachter from a book or a movie and say oh thats a Bard.

I like your build as Bard as helper, but it almost feels like a Warlord kind of build.

The bard is defined by figures like the mytho-historical Irish fili, Gaelic and Brithonic bards, and Scandinavian and Germanic skops and skalds.

They are storytellers, lorekeepers, truth tellers and curse bringers. The Lore Bard in 5e, with the right spells, actually comes kinda close, but is so laden with superperfluous nonsense like jack of all trades and magical secrets that it has no room to properly lean in to inspiration, lore, and the power of "mundane" words from the lips of a Bard.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So a full homebrew class, not using the current classes.

Kinda.

I'm don't think heavy armor and greatswords is good for bards, even Valor ones.

Hard disagree. The warrior bard should have all qeapons and armor available to them, and absolutely should not require spending your subclass just to get there.

But a choice of Medium + Shield vs +Cha to int skills sounds good.
Martial weapons can be a subclass upgrade.

Level 1
Bardic Inspiration
Expertise in Performance.
As a bonus action choose one of the following. Creatues you choose within 30' gains the effect until the start of your next turn, or until you lose concentration as if you where concentrating on a spell. You can use this at-will.
+1d4 to Attack rolls
-1d4 to Attack rolls
+1d4 to Skill checks
-1d4 to Skill checks.

Nope. I get where ya come from but IMO the class needs panache and baked in flavor on a level similar to paladins. Having different effects is better IMO.

Level 3
Subclass adds a other effects Bardic Inspiration.
-Dance bards increase to 60'.
-Valor bards add it to their damage rolls.
-Moon bards get an additional option to give Resistance to an elemental damage type.

Level 5
When you use Bardic inspiration, select 2 effects. You can choose different creatures for each effect. You also gain the following options.
Opportunity attacks have disadvantage
Opportunity attacks have advantage.
+1d4 to saving throws
+5' of Movement.
Advantage of Death saving throws.

Level 11, select 3 effects. New options.
Immunity to Fear
Immunity to Charm.
Resistance to Psychic
-1d4 to saving throws

Level 20, when you gain this level choose 2 Bardic Inspiration options. They are permanently added to your Bardic Inspirations, in addition to the other choices.


This way rather than invocations that make you play 1 song you play over and over again, you can change it on the fly.
And concentration keeps it from stacking, letting it be at-will.


Half caster, but you can pick any spell from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard list.
I don't think the bard list has any unique spells anyways.

A reason to curate a bard spell list, not to make them even more generic.

Sure.

 

[Steampunkette]

I like some stuff here, but I don't feel like they need all weapons and armor to feel like Bards.

1) Bonus Action Economy at level 1. Call it something like "Dry Wit" and give them the ability to Help within 30ft with a Verbal component or cast Vicious Mockery on a given turn. This replaces Jack of All Trades at level 1.

2) Half-Casting.

3) Jack of All Trades replaces Expertise at level 3. Being at least half-skilled at everything is a stronger identity than being exceptionally good at a couple skills of your choice, which is where the Rogue excels.

4) Countercharm needs to move down to 3rd level.

5) Extra Attack at 5th level.

6) Vicious Mockery deals half damage on a successful save at 6th level.

7) Subclasses that get Extra Attack at 6th level instead gain the ability to deal more damage with melee attacks to creatures that have been targeted with Vicious Mockery in the past minute.

This structure takes some of the sting out of spending your turn healing, since you can still bonus action insult the BBEG's mother and deal damage. It also essentially gives the Bard an "Off Hand Weapon" without needing one. For those Bards that take more melee/combat focused archetypes, they also get a better choice of how to spend their bonus action economy in a given situation.

Do you help the Paladin land a smite, use a vicious mockery to try to reduce the chance of the next incoming hit landing while doing some (low) guaranteed damage, or do you -use- an off-hand weapon with weapon enchantments that do more damage than Vicious Mockery's 1d4?

Yes, Vicious Mockery scales, but 1d6+Magic might wind up doing more than 4d4 damage, even if they fail the save, depending on the magic weapon in question. You -can- get a Flame Tongue Shortsword, after all, and dip Fighter for Two Weapon style.

 

[Milieu]

When I read "Using...Warlock to Remake Bard", my first thought was the Bard selling their soul to the devil in exchange for guitar skills, like Tommy and/or Robert Johnson.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

i think i'd want more features that identifies bard more into being a INT user, highlighting their identity as the storyteller-loremaster using the knowledge skills rather than leaning so hard on the entertainer-performer aspects.

I would be down with going Int and having the non-martial "holy order" type choice give +Int to social checks.

personally if you're reducing them to a halfcaster i think magical secrets can stay, i always thought it was thematic in picking up bits of magical knowledge and with half-progression it's much less exploitable.

To me, Magical Secrets has no strong relationship to the class fantasy, and would better fit the Warlock.

I like it. In general, I think you could use the Warlock structure as a foundation for a bunch of classes, especially if you allow for ritual casting to cover out of combat utility stuff. A very vancian (as in, Jack Vance's Dying Earth) wizard, for example, is probably better modelled after the Warlock than the current wizard.

Yeah tbh a lot of arcane classes would be better with warlock design. I would be all for wizards being redesigned with something like invocations.

I like some stuff here, but I don't feel like they need all weapons and armor to feel like Bards.

Of course not all bards do, which is why it is an option rather than a basic feature. Like clerics. Skald type "warrior-bards" need to be full warriors, however.

1) Bonus Action Economy at level 1. Call it something like "Dry Wit" and give them the ability to Help within 30ft with a Verbal component or cast Vicious Mockery on a given turn. This replaces Jack of All Trades at level 1.

2) Half-Casting.

3) Jack of All Trades replaces Expertise at level 3. Being at least half-skilled at everything is a stronger identity than being exceptionally good at a couple skills of your choice, which is where the Rogue excels.

Just a very very hard no for me on this. The bard isnt a dabbler they are experts and loremasters. The entire jack of all trades shtick wrt Bards needs to be completely removed IMO.

4) Countercharm needs to move down to 3rd level.

Or add its function to Bardic Inspiration right at level 1 as an alt way to use your uses of bardic inspiration. (Maybe renamed Power of Words or something)

5) Extra Attack at 5th level.

For all bards?

6) Vicious Mockery deals half damage on a successful save at 6th level.

Sure

7) Subclasses that get Extra Attack at 6th level instead gain the ability to deal more damage with melee attacks to creatures that have been targeted with Vicious Mockery in the past minute.

This structure takes some of the sting out of spending your turn healing, since you can still bonus action insult the BBEG's mother and deal damage. It also essentially gives the Bard an "Off Hand Weapon" without needing one. For those Bards that take more melee/combat focused archetypes, they also get a better choice of how to spend their bonus action economy in a given situation.

Do you help the Paladin land a smite, use a vicious mockery to try to reduce the chance of the next incoming hit landing while doing some (low) guaranteed damage, or do you -use- an off-hand weapon with weapon enchantments that do more damage than Vicious Mockery's 1d4?

Yes, Vicious Mockery scales, but 1d6+Magic might wind up doing more than 4d4 damage, even if they fail the save, depending on the magic weapon in question. You -can- get a Flame Tongue Shortsword, after all, and dip Fighter for Two Weapon style.

I meal they can heal as a bonus action already, why not lean into that?

 

[Steampunkette]

Of course not all bards do, which is why it is an option rather than a basic feature. Like clerics. Skald type "warrior-bards" need to be full warriors, however.

"I make a Loremaster Bard and take the All Weapons and Armor Function" is probably not a great narrative-supporting option, is my point.

Leaving the armors and weapon variety in the colleges makes more sense to me. So that if you make a Skald, it's a core part of your Skald training, rather than something that all bards, regardless of type, get as a core feature at level 1.

Just a very very hard no for me on this. The bard isnt a dabbler they are experts and loremasters. The entire jack of all trades shtick wrt Bards needs to be completely removed IMO.

Probably never gonna agree on this one, but here's why I think Jack of All Trades is better than Expertise:

The Bard's primary function in any party is as the Fifth Man. Their roles is to be a backup to everyone else. They're not the best fighters (so they don't get all the weapons and armors) they're not the best casters (so they don't get comprehensive 9th level spellcasting) they're not the best healers (so they get some healing options along the way) and they're not the best at being able to use skills (so they don't get full mastery over specific skills).

Instead they gain a lot of knowledge about a lot of things so that if the party is lacking something, they're at least competent enough to succeed a reasonable amount of the time. They'll never excel at finding traps, but they might roll well enough to caution the rogue that they've missed something.

Or add its function to Bardic Inspiration right at level 1 as an alt way to use your uses of bardic inspiration. (Maybe renamed Power of Words or something)

Also works fine, yeah. It just needs to have -really- early functionality to be able to directly combat the primary threats for it. Things like Harpies (CR 1) definitely fall into that bucket.

For all bards?

For all bards! Moving them to half-casting means making them more combat-functional than they currently are. Instead of their major contribution being spellcasting they need to add that oomph in, somewhere. And a bard with a rapier or something swinging twice fits just fine for me.

Thanks to Charisma being their prime stat they'll never be as good at it as a fighter or barbarian, whose primary stat is their attack attribute, but they'll be more competent at taking swings than the rogue who instead focuses on a single big hit.

Meanwhile giving them access to all weapon types without extra attack as a core feature will just result in an overall weakening of the class as they move toward half-casting.

I meal they can heal as a bonus action already, why not lean into that?

Ehhhh... because one is a class feature and the other is a spell they CAN take... and a spell that, mostly, sucks.

Don't get me wrong! Moving cure wounds to 2d8 per level is a great change! But healing word at 2d4 is still just a single weapon's damage with no attribute modifier away from the ground. The whole healing economy structure really should've had a deeper reading before they shipped with that.

My Inquisitor is a better healing structure than -that-.

That said. Yeah. They also have the choice of dropping a Healing Word with that Bonus Action. Giving them another option to pick through for their bonus action economy. Which is nice.

 

[zakael19]

The bard is defined by figures like the mytho-historical Irish fili, Gaelic and Brithonic bards, and Scandinavian and Germanic skops and skalds.

Who quite literally Satire Curse people to death in legend. Vicious Mockery is possibly the most historical bardic thing carried forward!

The ToV bard has Auras / Performances. It's still a full caster though.

Edit: the Pillars of Eternity chanter is so much of a better bard in that they use their knowledge of lore and heroic tales to have effects on the enemy and friends like.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Who quite literally Satire Curse people to death in legend. Vicious Mockery is possibly the most historical bardic thing carried forward!

Hell yeah.

The ToV bard has Auras / Performances. It's still a full caster though.

I didn't have any interest in ToV, but maybe I should check it out.

Edit: the Pillars of Eternity chanter is so much of a better bard in that they use their knowledge of lore and heroic tales to have effects on the enemy and friends like.

Really? That sounds dope. It is on my list of games to get around to. Right now I am working through the second campaign of Solasta. Might pick up PoE after that.