D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Voadam]

So in 5e 24 how do you handle someone who is surprised, but unaware of a hidden ambusher?

From the SRD:

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order. The GM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the GM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.

Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

So an ambusher has hidden well and the whole party is surprised but someone wins initiative over the ambusher. A lone ambusher attacking a multiperson party this is not that unlikely.

I see two ways to handle this.

1 The high initiative surprised get their place set in initiative but no real combat actions until after they are aware they are in combat.

2 They are aware something is up, but no idea what. They could dodge, or look around and make a search perception check, or cast a prep spell/use a power, or move, or do something else appropriate.

 

[Reynard]

There has to be an inciting incident that calls for the initiative roll. If it is an ambush, I give the ambusher a single action that sets off the encounter, and once it is resolved, then everyone rolls for initiative as normal.

 

[Aurel Guthrie]

Sixth sense. They sense something is amiss, and so they prepare. Ready action to attack a hostile creature, dodge action, take cover, search action to spot hidden creatures, etc. Happens all the time in media.

 

[Charlaquin]

Turns in combat are an abstraction for ease of resolution, but within the fiction, all participants’ actions within a round are happening simultaneously, or very near to it. So, a surprised creature getting to take its turn before the attacker just means that the surprised creature saw or heard the attacker coming at them just before the hit landed, but had fast enough reflexes to land a counter-attack or get out of the way in the nick of time.

Alternatively, just keep using the 5.0 surprise rules (or the 3.X “surprise round” rules that most people incorrectly applied to 5.0)

 

[Stalker0]

I would go with "something happens enough that triggers teh spidere sense, so they fear something is up...but they don't know what".

So the players can act but don't really have a target to attack.

Though you could argue in many ways this is worse than if the attacker had gotten to go first, but the party's first round would be "efficient" because they have a target to attack.

 

[Reynard]

I would go with "something happens enough that triggers teh spidere sense, so they fear something is up...but they don't know what".

So the players can act but don't really have a target to attack.

Though you could argue in many ways this is worse than if the attacker had gotten to go first, but the party's first round would be "efficient" because they have a target to attack.

I am struggling to understand why you would have players roll initiative before the characters notice something to respond to.

 

[Voadam]

I would go with "something happens enough that triggers teh spidere sense, so they fear something is up...but they don't know what".

So the players can act but don't really have a target to attack.

Though you could argue in many ways this is worse than if the attacker had gotten to go first, but the party's first round would be "efficient" because they have a target to attack.

I don't think it would be worse for a whole party.

Consider situation A the party loses initiative and the hidden ooze on the ceiling goes first. It attacks someone with advantage from being hidden then the party goes and can attack the ooze.

Situation B the party wins initiative over the hidden ooze on the ceiling that rolled poorly on initiative. They get a round to do whatever on their turn first (dodge, buff, move, etc.) then after the ooze attacks they go again and can attack the ooze similar to situation A. If they dodge or use their action to successfully search for the hidden ambusher they negate the advantage of the ooze's attack. If they move the ooze might not be able to get them at all.

They are in no way worse off in situation B that I can think of and might be better off.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

So in 5e 24 how do you handle someone who is surprised, but unaware of a hidden ambusher?

From the SRD:

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order. The GM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the GM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

So an ambusher has hidden well and the whole party is surprised but someone wins initiative over the ambusher. A lone ambusher attacking a multiperson party this is not that unlikely.

I see two ways to handle this.

1 The high initiative surprised get their place set in initiative but no real combat actions until after they are aware they are in combat.

2 They are aware something is up, but no idea what. They could dodge, or look around and make a search perception check, or cast a prep spell/use a power, or move, or do something else appropriate.

Arrows are not firearms or lasers. A bow makes an audible sound and requires shifting position, and even after it is fired, there is often a significant amount of travel time. Weapons take time to draw and swing.
Even a spell with an instantaneous effect will require components that can be noticed.

I think the source of the confusion is the assumption that because a creature's turn is resolved all at once during a combat round, everything occurring during it must happen instantaneously.

The gunfighter who reacts after someone else goes for their gun but still gets their shot off first is an example of someone who is surprised, but still beats the opponent's initiative. As is any number of other scenes where the (usually) hero reacts to an arrow already in flight, or some other indication that an attacker is about to attack from hiding as they make their attack, but still reacts to it.

 

[Voadam]

There has to be an inciting incident that calls for the initiative roll. If it is an ambush, I give the ambusher a single action that sets off the encounter, and once it is resolved, then everyone rolls for initiative as normal.

So you don't use the 24 surprise rules and continue using the 14 ones. Got it.

Under the 14 rules an ambusher will get one or two rounds worth of actions off before the surprised can go. Under the 24 rules they can only get one off before the ambushee.

 

[Maxperson]

So in 5e 24 how do you handle someone who is surprised, but unaware of a hidden ambusher?

From the SRD:

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order. The GM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the GM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

So an ambusher has hidden well and the whole party is surprised but someone wins initiative over the ambusher. A lone ambusher attacking a multiperson party this is not that unlikely.

I see two ways to handle this.

1 The high initiative surprised get their place set in initiative but no real combat actions until after they are aware they are in combat.

2 They are aware something is up, but no idea what. They could dodge, or look around and make a search perception check, or cast a prep spell/use a power, or move, or do something else appropriate.

Sometimes people react before they really know what's going on and/or recover from surprise almost instantly.

When I was in junior high school a buddy of mine saw me cutting behind the buildings we lived in to get somewhere. He hid behind a corner and jumped out at me to surprise me. Before I even knew who he was I had punched him in the face. Afterwards he said he was never doing that again.

Were I to use the 5.5e rules, I'd let the defender attack first.