D&D 5E (2024) How do you handle surprised but won initiative?

[Distracted DM]

I've definitely run surprise 5e14 RAW, and I've house-ruled it on the fly, and I've basically said "ok you, the fighter, get advantage on initiative because you were the one that decided to draw steel first."

I think I actually like 5e14 RAW the best, because yeah it really does reward ambush play. It rewards strategic and tactical thinking. It is, yes, very powerful. I don't think there's anything wrong with that if you want to make scouting and such intelligence-gathering and planning more immediately incentivized. Yes, by scouting you can see that it's a red fire drake in the next room ... so you can save a round warding vs. fire. OR you can lure the thing into an ambush and get a free round of attacks on it. That's going to be more immediately valuable to a party's reckoning than a little extra prep time.

 

[BigMac75]

Reading all this made me think that there may be options for the surprised people who win initiative that simply limits their actions. I know it would not be RAW but letting someone run 20' and attack while a leopard is mid-air coming out of the tree does not seem realistic. However, snapping off a shot with a loaded crossbow, or even knocking and firing an arrow for an experienced archer (or getting off a Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast) seems more realistic.

For those that win initiative over the surprise-attacker:

• Would it be too much to only allow bonus actions or reactions in response to a surprise attack?
• Or allowing attacks if an enemy is in range but not allowing any movement till the surprise attack itself resolves?
• Or maybe reducing the number of attacks available by 1 for those that win initiative (to take into account superior fighting prowess that is apparent in those that have multiple attacks per round)?

I think that even if these things might seem to penalize the characters that win initiative (since they cannot do as much as their slower colleagues) it is actually letting them do something before the surprise attack resolves, which is what is actually important. However, it is also still giving a realistic benefit for surprise.

 

[Artamo]

Thing is, you weren't just speaking about your own game play in the post to which I replied, you were speaking of modern gaming trends - some of which I find very sad indeed - as a whole.

And while I've no right to criticize your own game play, I think (or at least bloody well hope) I'm free to criticize overall trends and developments.

You asked me a direct question, I didn’t engage you. Comment all you want about trends but when someone gives you an answer, which by the way is likely always going to be a opinion, not some sort of gospel truth, perhaps be more specific about what it is you are directing your commentary towards.

 

[Plaguescarred]

5.5 Surprise is all about maximizing the chances of ambushers acting before surprised foes.

As DM i give Advantage to ambusher's Initiative, Disadvantage to surprised creature and may use Initiative scores as suggested in the Dungeon Master Guide instead of rolling Initiative for following result;

Ambusher 15 + DEX mod

Surprised 5 + DEX mod

Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.

Rolling Initiative. In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll.

Advantage and Disadvantage. If a creature has Advantage on Initiative rolls, increase its Initiative score by 5. If it has Disadvantage on those rolls, decrease that score by 5.

Initiative Scores for Characters. You can get to the action of combat more quickly by using Initiative scores instead of rolling. You might decide to use Initiative scores just for characters, just for monsters, or for both. A character’s Initiative score is typically 10 plus all modifiers to the character’s Initiative roll (including their Dexterity modifier and any special modifiers).

Ties. If a tie occurs, the DM decides the order among tied monsters, and the players decide the order among tied characters. The DM decides the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Now in the event that we roll Initiative and the surprise creature's turn comes up before the ambusher in combat but doesn't yet know who are the other participants or what was attempted when it's turn comes up, as DM i usually rely on the narrative to describe what Initiative lead to combat starting. Someone is closing in or attempting to attack as noise is heard or a suddent intuition of imminent danger is felt etc..

With Initiative, what matter here is that combatant knows its surprised by combat starting despite not perceiving any active threat, even if it only comes down to intuition like i said.

All in all, the effect of surprised will have been achieved, which is Disadvantage to Initiative.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

There's a surprisingly short distance between the two bolded bits here, at least in my eyes. The very term"cinematic combat" brings to mind images of the characters striking dramatic poses and spouting badly-written lines as they wade through their foes.

Cinematic combat isn't just Marvel cinematic universe-like depictions.
There are other styles of combat: cinematic often just means narrative and dynamic: people are fighting for a reason, in a challenging and changing scenario.

I would have thought the bolded was a non-negotiable fact of life. You declare it, you do it. No take-backs.

Maybe, but one example I quoted had someone changing their action based on the reaction to their previously-declared action.

Even more so in older editions with longer rounds. That said, even if you see the leopard coming as it pounces you're still not going to have time to get a weapon out, a shield up, and chop at it before it lands on you (or someone else) and starts shredding.

If that is where you personally draw the limit of human capabilities, then you could restrict the available actions, or just state that there is no initiative roll if you regard it as a fait accompli.

 

[Distracted DM]

Reading all this made me think that there may be options for the surprised people who win initiative that simply limits their actions. I know it would not be RAW but letting someone run 20' and attack while a leopard is mid-air coming out of the tree does not seem realistic. However, snapping off a shot with a loaded crossbow, or even knocking and firing an arrow for an experienced archer (or getting off a Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast) seems more realistic.

For those that win initiative over the surprise-attacker:

• Would it be too much to only allow bonus actions or reactions in response to a surprise attack?
• Or allowing attacks if an enemy is in range but not allowing any movement till the surprise attack itself resolves?
• Or maybe reducing the number of attacks available by 1 for those that win initiative (to take into account superior fighting prowess that is apparent in those that have multiple attacks per round)?

I think that even if these things might seem to penalize the characters that win initiative (since they cannot do as much as their slower colleagues) it is actually letting them do something before the surprise attack resolves, which is what is actually important. However, it is also still giving a realistic benefit for surprise.

Yeah that's a fine idea.

You could make it simple and say that the surprisers are Slow that first free round. So they get AN attack OR a bonus action etc.

Or you could say that if there's no free rounds the surprisees are Slow that first round.

 

[BigMac75]

Yeah that's a fine idea.

You could make it simple and say that the surprisers are Slow that first free round. So they get AN attack OR a bonus action etc.

Or you could say that if there's no free rounds the surprisees are Slow that first round.

Interesting - agree, many parts of the spells effect seems very appropriate. Modifying slightly...

Surprised but Wins Initiative​

If a creature is surprised and rolls a higher initiative than a creature that surprised it, the following effects apply to the surprised creature until the end of its first turn in the combat:

• Its Speed is halved.
• It can take only one of the following on its turn: an Action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction.
• If it takes the Attack action on that turn, it can make only one attack, even if it has a feature that would normally allow it to make more than one attack.

 

[SkidAce]

Interesting - agree, many parts of the spells effect seems very appropriate. Modifying slightly...

Surprised but Wins Initiative​

If a creature is surprised and rolls a higher initiative than a creature that surprised it, the following effects apply to the surprised creature until the end of its first turn in the combat:

• Its Speed is halved.
• It can take only one of the following on its turn: an Action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction.
• If it takes the Attack action on that turn, it can make only one attack, even if it has a feature that would normally allow it to make more than one attack.

How do you feel that compares with "Surprised but Lost Initiative" which allows for a creature to act normally?

 

[BigMac75]

How do you feel that compares with "Surprised but Lost Initiative" which allows for a creature to act normally?

I certainly don't claim to be an expert by any means so there may be all kinds of implications that I am not appreciating. Just trying to add to the conversation...

I was thinking that the folks who were surprised and lost initiative are acting after the surprise action/attack so could act normally given the state of things after the surprise was sprung. It could be reasonable to limit their actions as well during the 1st turn but this probably depends on how a DM interprets the situation and the level of surprise as well as reasonable responses.

I also have not thought through when there are multiple surprise attackers - some of whom win initiative and some of whom are lower in the order of actions. Do you just see the 1st attacker that jumps out (for example) since others are still hidden?