My Changing Thoughts on Science Fantasy Games

[Staffan]

In Middle Earth only Maia can use magic, there are quite a few fantasies were 'Witch' is considered a species rather than a Vocation.

I do not believe that is true. We definitely see elves using magic in the books, such as the magic used by Elrond and Galadriel to protect Rivendell and Lothlorien – sure, the Rings are part of that, but not the entiriety. Boromir and Faramir had prophetic dreams. Beorn (and his kin?) can change shape. IIRC, many of the Nazgûl were also some kind of magic-users in their mortal lives – there's a reason the Witch-King of Angmar is called that. And the Blue Wizards were said to have started magic traditions of their own in the East, though we don't know much about those.

 

[Tonguez]

I do not believe that is true. We definitely see elves using magic in the books, such as the magic used by Elrond and Galadriel to protect Rivendell and Lothlorien – sure, the Rings are part of that, but not the entiriety. Boromir and Faramir had prophetic dreams. Beorn (and his kin?) can change shape. IIRC, many of the Nazgûl were also some kind of magic-users in their mortal lives – there's a reason the Witch-King of Angmar is called that. And the Blue Wizards were said to have started magic traditions of their own in the East, though we don't know much about those.

Ah yes, Maia and those bloody pesky VulcansElves!
The Blue Wizards were Maia too, they were sent East while Gandalf and the others went west. Dwarfs and Humans required artifacts to access magic however - the Nazgul gained their corruption from the Rings, Beorns powers were magical but according to Gandalf Beorn was under "no enchantment but his own" so a natural ability innate to his bloodline.

 

[Staffan]

Ah yes, Maia and those bloody pesky VulcansElves!
The Blue Wizards were Maia too, they were sent East while Gandalf and the others went west. Dwarfs and Humans required artifacts to access magic however - the Nazgul gained their corruption from the Rings, Beorns powers were magical but according to Gandalf Beorn was under "no enchantment but his own" so a natural ability innate to his bloodline.

The Blue Wizards starting magical traditions implies that they are teaching magic to others. And the impression I get about the Nazgûl is that they were sorcerers before they got the rings, and that that was one of the things that made Sauron pick them as recipients.

There's also the fact that people in general don't really seem to raise an eyebrow at Gandalf being a Wizard. I mean, those who know of him tend to be pretty impressed (one way or another), but not to the degree that would be appropriate for one of five magic-wielders in the whole world.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Magic items.

A key feature for me in RPGs is the possibility of acquiring "magic items", by which I mean items that grant special powers...making my character more powerful in some way...and cannot be acquired in any deterministic way e.g., purchased from a store, granted as part of regular progression, etc.)

In a science fiction game these sorts of things can be (and often are) not "magical" but created using forgotten technology from an extinct race. Which (Arthur C. Clarke reference) is really just magic. But as soon as it becomes "just save up enough credits and you can buy one" then, pardon the play on words, the magic is gone.

So I would have trouble enjoying a strictly "science fiction" game that didn't somehow incorporate some analogue to magic items.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Magic items.

A key feature for me in RPGs is the possibility of acquiring "magic items", by which I mean items that grant special powers...making my character more powerful in some way...and cannot be acquired in any deterministic way e.g., purchased from a store, granted as part of regular progression, etc.)

In a science fiction game these sorts of things can be (and often are) not "magical" but created using forgotten technology from an extinct race. Which (Arthur C. Clarke reference) is really just magic. But as soon as it becomes "just save up enough credits and you can buy one" then, pardon the play on words, the magic is gone.

So I would have trouble enjoying a strictly "science fiction" game that didn't somehow incorporate some analogue to magic items.

Lost, advanced, forbidden, and/or classified technology fits the bill for me.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Lost, advanced, forbidden, and/or classified technology fits the bill for me.

Yeah, me too. But to me that counts as a bit of "fantasy". I'm just saying that any genre...space, espionage, etc....without a little bit of that (e.g. Weyland-Yutani corporation technology) won't be enough for me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, me too. But to me that counts as a bit of "fantasy". I'm just saying that any genre...space, espionage, etc....without a little bit of that (e.g. Weyland-Yutani corporation technology) won't be enough for me.

Fortunately, just about every setting has stuff like that.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Fortunately, just about every setting has stuff like that.

I guess I'm misunderstanding the debate about Science vs. Science Fantasy then.